Islands We tried

woodfish330

I'm to smart to figure out how to edit this.
  • Aug 14, 2012
    2,667
    6,375
    San Fransisco,CA USA
    Name
    John
    Boat Name
    Fishead
    @ShadowX
    Brother thank you always for your "Tireless " efforts and research regarding knots and lines. We should all be so lucky.... to have a Skilled Individual willing to do it right.... and report back here. WE APPRECIATE YOU BROTHER!!

    Now I have something I need to get cleared up... regarding some of the numbers you got. Please disregard the actual numbers.... they are for exemplary purposes.

    Follow my example.....
    Berkeley BIG GAME #20....
    -straight break #27.2. (no knots or hardware)
    With Trilene Knot at your stated 100% = #27.2? or... 100% = breaks at #20??

    One would be.... 100% of the LABELED pound rating.... ie #20?

    One would be ....72% of the ACTUAL Straight Breaking strength.

    Which is it? It must remain consistant.... right. The testing criteria also remains consistant right? Help me and your fellow BD Brothers by clarification please. Thanks.
     

    ShadowX

    I Post A Lot But I Can't Edit This
    Oct 10, 2010
    3,464
    5,279
    Los Angeles
    Name
    Anonymous
    Boat Name
    None
    @ShadowX
    Brother thank you always for your "Tireless " efforts and research regarding knots and lines. We should all be so lucky.... to have a Skilled Individual willing to do it right.... and report back here. WE APPRECIATE YOU BROTHER!!

    Now I have something I need to get cleared up... regarding some of the numbers you got. Please disregard the actual numbers.... they are for exemplary purposes.

    Follow my example.....
    Berkeley BIG GAME #20....
    -straight break #27.2. (no knots or hardware)
    With Trilene Knot at your stated 100% = #27.2? or... 100% = breaks at #20??

    One would be.... 100% of the LABELED pound rating.... ie #20?

    One would be ....72% of the ACTUAL Straight Breaking strength.

    Which is it? It must remain consistant.... right. The testing criteria also remains consistant right? Help me and your fellow BD Brothers by clarification please. Thanks.

    The line strength on a spool will vary due to manufacturing variations. You can have a section of line break at 19.5 lbs while another section breaks at 21lbs. The diameter of the line may vary as the tension changes as the line is spooled by the vendor. Line that is packed closer to the center may be more deformed. All I could do is take a large number of samples of the line and get the average value. I take the mono line and have a compressible washer to hold it in place while I tension the line with no knots. On the mono line I have, the line is rated at 20lbs and it breaks at approximately 19.5 to 21 range. It was well within the 2-5% margin or error.

    I just use the rated line strength as the "ideal" break strength (ie: 20lbs). The only way I know for sure that its breaking at or below the line strength is to note where the line breaks. If it breaks at the knot, I assume the knot was the weak point. If it broke somewhere else, it may be the line or potential nick on the line. On my data sets, I keep a running column that I note if the line broke on the line or the knot.

    You will see some that broke at let's say 17.2 lbs (data point 35), but it didn't break at the Trilene knot. Most likely the line was frayed or it broke at the opposite end where the line is wrapped around a compressible washer. I still record the data point as a break at 17.2lbs, but just noted that it didn't break at the knot.

    I also calculate the average and the median (half way point of all the data set) along with calculating the standard deviation. The standard deviation just tells you how wide the data points are spread on the histogram chart. The further apart the data, the higher the number. You can see the two sample knots below (Trilene and Springer) and how the data is spread. The Trilene has a larger spread of variation while the Springer knot has breaking point that is more consistent. It might be how the knot is cinched down or human errors related to tying the knot. Obviously a simpler knot would be easier and more reliable to tie, so its more consistent. A more complex knot may be stronger, but the variations may be greater due to the complexity of cinching it down properly.

    I hope this makes sense. It takes a lot of time to tie the knots and run each test. In fact, I had used up and entire roll of 1000 yard spool to take the mono data. It takes about 6-8 inches of line per test. Obviously, I don't have that much fluorocarbon, so I'm not going to take as many samples with fluoro.

    These are just my own experiments to look for a strong but easy to tie knot for my own use. I am always curious about different knots and their strength. I was surprised the Double Davy knots averaged around 18.45lbs and the Orvis was around 17.94lbs. Both knots were even stronger than the Springer knot. The double Davy knot had a standard deviation of 1.08 so was very similar to the Springer knot in terms of consistency.

    I'm one of the guys who always believe the common knots that people tie and suggest are the best. The data opened up my eyes to the reality. I only believe what the data shows now. That is why you have to take a lot of samples to get meaningful data. The minimum is 10, but the more the better.

    I hope that makes sense.

    Trilene Knot:

    1660617703513.png


    Springer Knot:

    1660617731443.png


    Double Davy:

    1660618998009.png
     

    John Stidman

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    Apr 29, 2018
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    Baketsfield ca
    Name
    John Stidman
    Boat Name
    26ft seaswirl striper,24 ft trophy walkaround,24ft glasply flybridge.
    Are you planning to head out again this week or weekend for fish? We might head out this Friday.

    Your fuel efficiency sounds about normal for a boat of that size. It seems like you hit all the right spots where it would hold fish. It could have been much worse. One of the guys we met had water get into his boat and swamped the inboard engines. The water damaged the tilt trim motor relay or wiring. Luckily, I help him do a bush fix and he was able to get the boat back into the trailer.
    Next Saturday if weather is gd I'm taking my sister and her kids to Catalina to see the island. Hang out fir the day. I'll probably troll some out and some in. Then stay and fish Sunday.
     
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    woodfish330

    I'm to smart to figure out how to edit this.
  • Aug 14, 2012
    2,667
    6,375
    San Fransisco,CA USA
    Name
    John
    Boat Name
    Fishead
    Next Saturday if weather is gd I'm taking my sister and her kids to Catalina to see the island. Hang out fir the day. I'll probably troll some out and some in. Then stay and fish Sunday.
    ......laughing. Damn it John.... "your sister.and the kids on the boat".... don't you know.... thats when the BIG BFT "Drill" is gonna happen.... FOR SURE!! Take it anyway you can get it my Brother.... just be ready.... I warned you...lol. Be safe out there.
     
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    John Stidman

    I Should Upgrade My Account
    Apr 29, 2018
    1,131
    1,480
    53
    Baketsfield ca
    Name
    John Stidman
    Boat Name
    26ft seaswirl striper,24 ft trophy walkaround,24ft glasply flybridge.
    Ths
    ......laughing. Damn it John.... "your sister.and the kids on the boat".... don't you know.... thats when the BIG BFT "Drill" is gonna happen.... FOR SURE!! Take it anyway you can get it my Brother.... just be ready.... I warned you...lol. Be safe out there.

    Thanks, yeah it would probably happen on way our and they will get stuck looking at the islands on my GPS lol. If I hook up that would be epic. Lol.
     
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    woodfish330

    I'm to smart to figure out how to edit this.
  • Aug 14, 2012
    2,667
    6,375
    San Fransisco,CA USA
    Name
    John
    Boat Name
    Fishead
    Your due for a karmic payback anyways Brother.... just don't let those darn kids reel in that "jumbo" you been after for a few seasons. I swear....I've seen more of this that I want to discuss.... caught him "by accident"....

    But ohhhhh what a story they would bring back to school Brother. Again.... good luck.
     
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    TexassJ

    Newbie
  • Jun 29, 2021
    33
    56
    67
    LB
    Name
    John Horton
    Boat Name
    38 Uniflite SF
    Before you tighten up drags as a last resort, try to reverse the boat to gain more line if you can. Never touch that damn drag unless your life depends on it. More fish were lost because of people fiddling with the drags while they are fighting the fish.

    If you pay enough dues, you will eventually get one. Best way is to keep an eye on reports and on a drop of a dime, head out the next day when the fishing is good. If you waited until you have time, chances are you will be skunked when there are lots of boats around, especially on the weekends.

    In terms of fishing knots for the hooks, learn the Trilene knot. Its the best knot for mono/fluoro up to around 60lbs. Its the only knot that is 100% line strength. All the other knots I tested break at 80-95% of line strength. Learn to tie that knot well, and you won't have the same issues again. The key is cinching it down properly and TESTING the knot afterwards. You have to put the hook on an eye or somewhere rigid and pull HARD! Pull until you know your drag is set much higher than you can pull. Don't even be shy about it. Pull!!!! Pull!!!! Its better to break while its on the boat than when you have a fish on. If it breaks, you get to retie the knot and try again. PULL! I tied knots that I thought were good and as soon as I do a hard pull it hard, it breaks. Even small errors or differences in the knot is enough to break a knot and you don't know if the knot is good or bad until you do a good pull test. Just remember to do that every time you tie a knot.
    I was on a private charter out of Redondo a month ago and I saw a dude pulling on his knots like that. That's the first time I'd seen or heard of it. Makes sense ...
     

    ShadowX

    I Post A Lot But I Can't Edit This
    Oct 10, 2010
    3,464
    5,279
    Los Angeles
    Name
    Anonymous
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    None
    I was on a private charter out of Redondo a month ago and I saw a dude pulling on his knots like that. That's the first time I'd seen or heard of it. Makes sense ...

    Its surprising how hard you can pull on knots when your line strength is over 40lbs. Without a tool, most people wouldn't be able to grip the line hard enough to pull that hard without cutting themselves. Its good practice to get a scale and pull the line to the drag setting. Leave the reel in the same setting and now pull on the line directly from the reel to get a feel for how much force it takes to get the spool moving. Over time, you will develop the ability to judge roughly where the line tension is set at just by pulling on line from the reel.

    The worse thing you can do is break the knot if you do a pull test on the boat. If it happened when a fish is hooked up, that could be a fish of a lifetime. It only takes a few seconds to test a knot, but many people don't do it. You really have to pull with the right tension, because with mono and even fluoro to a certain extent, the line will stretch and the diameter of the line will get smaller. You want to make sure you cinch down the loops while its in tension so that when you let go of the line, the loops will be in slight compression. If not, you will get bigger gaps between the coils depending on the knot you tie. Its these gaps that allow the line to move and cut into itself and break the line when it rubs on itself. You want tight coils under compression so it won't loosen up when a fish is on.

    After that, the main way you can lose the fish is if the line gets nicked. That is why I always run my finger through the line to check for nicks after I bring it in and before I put it back out. Its also a good time to take a quick look at the knot to make sure its still good. If I caught a fish, I would even retie a new knot if I'm not 100% confident the fish didn't damage the line. Its just good practice.
     

    John Stidman

    I Should Upgrade My Account
    Apr 29, 2018
    1,131
    1,480
    53
    Baketsfield ca
    Name
    John Stidman
    Boat Name
    26ft seaswirl striper,24 ft trophy walkaround,24ft glasply flybridge.
    Honestly I'm lost on all this but it's interesting and I'm learning. Thanks fir all the replies, advice and knowledge.
     
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