Time for a YT regulation change?

Azarkon

I've posted enough I should edit this section
Aug 28, 2015
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You still don't get it...
Laws based on fear?
My view has nothing to do with lawmaking or fear or anything else except that yellows are the ultimate gamefish in my opinion and strictly based on that I hate to see little dead ones that never had the opportunity to turn into what were all lookin for..
I know it sounds crazy but there is no political statement behind my feelings at all..
My opinion hasn't been formed from being locked in a room but rather being locked to a rail...
I don't question the fact that your feelings and concern are genuine; what I question is the value of feelings.

What you don't seem to get is that yellows are a top of the list fish for many guys that fish often... it is my personal favorite and seeing limits of dead peanut yellows killed before they got the opportunity to become that freight training structure seeking missile that we get the pleasure to battle makes a lot of guys sick...
This species holds a special place in the hearts of many experienced guys and they will defend it regardless of data ..
This is a defense of ignorance. How in the world can you simply assume that you're doing right by the fish population when you don't even attempt to do the necessary research? How do you know a minimum size limit is going to result in significantly more quality fish? All the while marine biologists are increasingly warning about population structure destruction via selective targeting of large fish?
 

crabdancer

Kook
Apr 18, 2012
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Shannon
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IMG_1662.PNG

Conehead, please stop with the 'we.' Represent yourself.

I know the internet has this illusion that all are equal and so are their opinions, but you're arguing for the sake of arguing with people I've known and looked up to since before the internet.

Since you've got the internet, google Kant's antinomy of pure reason. Basically if you argue a point to its bitter end the contradictions that eventually come into play negate the original position.

Or, we could all go kill some fish. The choice is ours.
 
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fishkilr

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Aug 27, 2012
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I don't question the fact that your feelings and concern are genuine; what I question is the value of feelings.



This is a defense of ignorance. How in the world can you simply assume that you're doing right by the fish population when you don't even attempt to do the necessary research? How do you know a minimum size limit is going to result in significantly more quality fish? All the while marine biologists are increasingly warning about population structure destruction via selective targeting of large fish?
I only said I don't like to see small dead yellows...
If to you that's ignorant then we come from two different worlds and the debate is pointless
 
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Azarkon

I've posted enough I should edit this section
Aug 28, 2015
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I only said I don't like to see small dead yellows...
If to you that's ignorant then we come from two different worlds and the debate is pointless
What's ignorant is to insist that research isn't needed before regulations are changed. I have no problem with you or anyone saying that you don't like to see small dead yellowtail. I do have a problem with saying no data is needed to justify a significant change in yellowtail laws.

Fish management laws aren't and shouldn't be based on feelings. They should be based on solid evidence, nothing less. In case we can't agree on that then indeed, nothing more to discuss.
 

Azarkon

I've posted enough I should edit this section
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Your gonna have to show me where I said anything remotely close to that..
This is what I said:

"This yellowtail scare is much closer to the latter than the former. It’s just like the marine protection zones, but worse because there they had a small amount of data and research to back them up where as here we have none.

Like I said, it’s not hard to get informed and anyone who is informed know there’s been no recent studies of yellowtail populations and no anecdotal evidence either that the population is struggling. Any change would be based on fear rather than data."

This is what you said:

"Since you say over and over there is a lack of data on yellows shouldn't such a situation be treated carefully to protect such a regal fish...
What you don't seem to get is that yellows are a top of the list fish for many guys that fish often... it is my personal favorite and seeing limits of dead peanut yellows killed before they got the opportunity to become that freight training structure seeking missile that we get the pleasure to battle makes a lot of guys sick...
This species holds a special place in the hearts of many experienced guys and they will defend it regardless of data .."

I was arguing that there needs to be data before any changes are made. You responded by saying this situation should be treated carefully and that "many experienced guys" like yourself will "defend it regardless of data..."

So what's the argument here? I'm assuming you were talking about making it illegal to keep small fish.
 
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fishkilr

on the water
Aug 27, 2012
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This is what I said:

"This yellowtail scare is much closer to the latter than the former. It’s just like the marine protection zones, but worse because there they had a small amount of data and research to back them up where as here we have none.

Like I said, it’s not hard to get informed and anyone who is informed know there’s been no recent studies of yellowtail populations and no anecdotal evidence either that the population is struggling. Any change would be based on fear rather than data."

This is what you said:

"Since you say over and over there is a lack of data on yellows shouldn't such a situation be treated carefully to protect such a regal fish...
What you don't seem to get is that yellows are a top of the list fish for many guys that fish often... it is my personal favorite and seeing limits of dead peanut yellows killed before they got the opportunity to become that freight training structure seeking missile that we get the pleasure to battle makes a lot of guys sick...
This species holds a special place in the hearts of many experienced guys and they will defend it regardless of data .."

I was arguing that there needs to be data before any changes are made. You responded by saying this situation should be treated carefully and that "many experienced guys" like yourself will "defend it regardless of data..."

So what's the argument here? I'm assuming you were talking about making it illegal to keep small fish.
It's your assumptions that many people have a problem with....
Why can't you take a statement at face value instead of assuming it means something contradictory to your agenda..?
This is why you are always alone in defending your position against several members at a time...
Is it possible that you need to change your method of debating to get more respect on this site?
I guess that's a decision you have to make but the data is indisputable....
 

Azarkon

I've posted enough I should edit this section
Aug 28, 2015
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It's your assumptions that many people have a problem with....
Why can't you take a statement at face value instead of assuming it means something contradictory to your agenda..?
This is why you are always alone in defending your position against several members at a time...
Is it possible that you need to change your method of debating to get more respect on this site?
I guess that's a decision you have to make but the data is indisputable....
I'll keep that in mind, thanks. When people quote me and respond in the negative I assume they're arguing against what I just said, but goal should always be to keep misunderstanding to a minimum.
 

plj46

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What's ignorant is to insist that research isn't needed before regulations are changed. I have no problem with you or anyone saying that you don't like to see small dead yellowtail. I do have a problem with saying no data is needed to justify a significant change in yellowtail laws.

Fish management laws aren't and shouldn't be based on feelings. They should be based on solid evidence, nothing less. In case we can't agree on that then indeed, nothing more to discuss.
Here's some research for ya,dead fish don't breed.Baby fish don't breed,especially when dead.
 

Azarkon

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Here's some research for ya,dead fish don't breed.Baby fish don't breed,especially when dead.
Large fish also don't breed when dead, and they release a lot more eggs. All the while, many of those small fish that you release, won't make it to adults, due to peer competition. That's the trade off.

Don't take my word for it. Look up "balanced harvesting" - probably the biggest debate in marine biology at the moment - which proposes to remove all size limits for the benefit of the ecosystem.
 

mullet

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Jan 10, 2006
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The regulations for yellowtail have stayed the same for decades without stock collapse
This statement shows how much experience you have with this fishery .It was "10 fish no size limit" and it wasn't changed decades ago.
 
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the SLIDER

https://multimediabylj.com
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This has turned into quite a shit storm, Azarkon being in the center of the vortex.

My skiff is small. Fishing inshore out of DP is all I have. That's why Bass are so important to me. I catch way more and better fish now than in the last 30 years since the regulation change. There is always committing a day stalking Biscuits or Butts, but catching them is very few and far between. I would love to see more YT inshore. Letting the thousands of babies go could help to make that happen. A few are going to stick.

Someone mentioned Global . . . something. Hasn't the weather pattern changed a little in the past 30 years in Socal??? I have been looking towards Oregon to retire. They have way less rain than they used to. Seems to me that IF the warmer weather conditions are moving North, so would the fish. Preserve the opportunity to have more and catch larger.

And once in a while fish get close enough for me to catch a pelagic.

 
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yellowfish26

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Aug 21, 2008
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Large fish also don't breed when dead, and they release a lot more eggs. All the while, many of those small fish that you release, won't make it to adults, due to peer competition. That's the trade off.

Don't take my word for it. Look up "balanced harvesting" - probably the biggest debate in marine biology at the moment - which proposes to remove all size limits for the benefit of the ecosystem.
Does your boss know how much time you spend during the day arguing about baby Yellows?
 

wils

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May 31, 2003
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The main damage was done in the 80's and 90's when the first purse seine fishing started here in Southern California. The sonars and fish finding computers were nothing like today's where we can tell what they are by the marks on the screen. The purse seine would wrap a sonar mark and if it wasn't what they wanted, they let it float. It was a practice back then. All us local guy's saw it that fished out of Dana Point. I know it's hard to believe unless you see it with your own eyes. The 70's and 80's I had a plant nursery Called Yoda's World in Dana Point and I fished 300 days a year. My boat was in the Barcardo and after I got things going I was in the water.
Thank you. I kinda figured there would be more to you original quick reply in regards commercial damage.
 
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Azarkon

I've posted enough I should edit this section
Aug 28, 2015
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This statement shows how much experience you have with this fishery .It was "10 fish no size limit" and it wasn't changed decades ago.
It was changed in 1998, which was indeed decades ago.

"The department initiated a minimum size limit on sport caught yellowtail during 1998 in an effort to reduce the catch of one-year-old fish." As far as I know, the exemption for five fish under the size limit has always existed, since the beginning.

The main drop in yellowtail catch came in the 1950s, according to commercial records. Variety of reasons. But from 1960 on, commercial fishing success for yellowtail has been very limited, compared to earlier. The vast majority of sport fish caught in California even 20 years ago were 4 to 12 pounds - 80% of which would be illegal under a 28 inch minimum size restriction. It's still that way today.
 
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mullet

Metal Fabricator
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To be decades it would have to have been before 1/11/98. The exemption for five fish under did not exist before this time it was 10 fish no size limit.This minimum came into effect because too many people were killing little fish. Now they are killing even smaller ones.
Argue about it and kill all the micro yellows you want or sack up and try to catch one that actually makes it a challenge.
 
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