Time for a YT regulation change?

Hardcor

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Throwing chunked Yellowtail at a Dorado patty is the way to get them going. Live Yellowtail in the tuna tubs is better then Bonitio and a live 8 inch Yellowtail on the thirty pound with a 4/0 is instant hook up on Dorado.

 
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fighingrjo

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More regulations!
Tell me more about how someone else should be able to tell me how to live my life.
I like the idea of bringing up the subject, and i know many boats do have "self imposed" limits (which gets a big thumbs up, by the way), but more regulations is not the solution. we as a fishing community should self regulate better, and educate those who do not know, or put a spotlight on the habitual baby killers. I don't get out as often as i would like to, but with or without regulations, i wouldn't keep/target smaller fish (yt, tuna, or otherwise). i have kept small ones that got mangled by treble hooks and weren't going to survive any way, and enjoyed eating them. With regulations, the mortally wounded fish would have to be thrown back instead of kept. I know some operations/captains, etc that are more interested in "the numbers", and i won't fish with them again.
 

Yellowtail Dan

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Those are pretty decent sized YT. I'm referring to these small fish that you see posted freely on the internet. These pics are not mine, just examples you find online. I'm sure you will agree we should let these small YT fight another day when its bigger.
These are fucking embarrassing!!!
 
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Paddyman1

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30 years ago YT were scarce to some regard. The species has come back to the Socal area in big numbers in the last 20 or so years. From what the old timers have told me, YT used to be caught off the piers and were considered junk fish. All of us are big fans of the YT because of the incredible fight and table fare.

I look at it this way. I hated killing bass that were 12" due to the measly filet, so I rarely did so. Regulation was 10-ea 12" bass per angler (Good thing the previous bass regulation was not 5 bass any size and 5 over twelve inches). When the regulation changed to 5-ea 14" bass per angler. it took a while for any legal bass to show up, at least in regular numbers. I think it's time to change the regulations for YT which is 10 total, 5 any size and 5 over 24" fork length. I'd like to see 5 fish per angler at least 28" fork length per day. QUIT killing the babies, let them get their NUT on at least once.

Here's a page I saw that has some YT details.

http://www.csun.edu/~nmfrp/yellowtail.html
Good point, LJ. A 10 # yellowtail is just shy of being able to make babies. I would be fine with a 5 fish daily limit, with only 2 that can be under 24".

And all this time I thought you were one of the old-timers...sorry about that. :drunk
 

mullet

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With regulations, the mortally wounded fish would have to be thrown back instead of kept.
How about with regulations these undersize fish wouldn't be targeted.
What a novel concept.
 

Hardcor

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I'm telling you what I heard from SD guys that where there in the late 40's, not 1983. Why not believe them?? Oh ya they're fisherman. One of the fisherman that told me this was named "Dutch" out of NP Landing". Call the dead guy a liar why don't you.
I have been fishing Yellowtail and Tuna locally starting in 1964. Oceanside pier was the longest pier in the state. We caught Bonita and Yellowtail 8 months of the year and some were giants. We never had to go past the 14 or Avalon bank for Albacore or Bluefin. It used to piss us off when the Yellowtail took over, we would run from them for the Tuna. From 1964 until right now, don't let anybody tell you
that we don't have to conserve. It is one tenth of what it was. I want to let all of you know one thing that is a fact. You and me, us recreational fisherman are not even in the equation. The commercial boats are wiping our fisheries out. The commercials boats take more in one night then we take in a whole season. That is a fact.

PS The little ones don't breed. The big ones have hundreds of thousands of eggs
Release a egg layer

 
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wils

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Yellowtail Dan

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I have been fishing Yellowtail and Tuna locally starting in 1964. Oceanside pier was the longest pier in the state. We caught Bonita and Yellowtail 8 months of the year and some were giants. We never had to go past the 14 or Avalon bank for Albacore or Bluefin. It used to piss us off when the Yellowtail took over, we would run from them for the Tuna. From 1964 until right now, don't let anybody tell you
that we don't have to conserve. It is one tenth of what it was. I want to let all of you know one thing that is a fact. You and me, us recreational fisherman are not even in the equation. The commercial boats are wiping our fisheries out. The commercials boats take more in one night then we take in a whole season. That is a fact.

PS The little ones don't breed. The big ones have hundreds of thousands of eggs
Release a egg layer

I remember walking the pier with my Dad when i was a little turd and looking through the gaps in the boards and feeling it move with each swell. Your are 100% correct it has changed and not for the better.

I’d only add that you won’t have breeders if folks keep killing the rats. One taco from one fillet isn’t worth it
 
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crabdancer

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The professors on here citing data and marine bio publications are selling the conversation short. The marine bio community is stuck in the academic industrial pressure to publish research. Sure, some of it is interesting, but who do you think they rely on for population sampling? They rely on experienced sport and commercial fishing operations. 99% of marine biologists couldn't consistently find fish if they tried.

Here's a joke to make the point: I can prove there are no coyotes in LA County. How? I'd need a team of scientists and interns, we'd start our day at 9am with a one hour meeting, look for coyotes from 10-12, take an hour for lunch, look for coyotes from 1-3,
and from 3-5 we'd meet to report our findings. We'd find Jimmy Hoffa before we found a coyote.

Then we'd publish our findings, make a recommendation that coyote hunting be banned in certain areas, and ask coyote hunters which areas they can't live without so we know which areas to close.

It's almost laughable except that's how the MLPA process went down.

The point is that we should be very careful crying wolf over marine bio statistics when it comes to regulation.

I'm all for responsibly harvesting yellowtail based on how much someone needs, but debating the point like it's an issue of population collapse and 'science' shows no understanding of the animal in question.
 

Hardcor

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This isn't an issue of "more regulations." Its an issue of modifying the ONE that we now have



There is no commercial fishing for YT in California, Corey
https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/fishing/commercial#310591027-finfish-and-invertebrates

Other than that, we're good on what you have presented. :)
The main damage was done in the 80's and 90's when the first purse seine fishing started here in Southern California. The sonars and fish finding computers were nothing like today's where we can tell what they are by the marks on the screen. The purse seine would wrap a sonar mark and if it wasn't what they wanted, they let it float. It was a practice back then. All us local guy's saw it that fished out of Dana Point. I know it's hard to believe unless you see it with your own eyes. The 70's and 80's I had a plant nursery Called Yoda's World in Dana Point and I fished 300 days a year. My boat was in the Barcardo and after I got things going I was in the water.
 

Azarkon

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Its not a scare storm. Yellowtail has always been a bonus if caught. Nobody stop fishing when the count for yellowtail is zero on the cattle boats. You have no facts that say the sportfishing fleet will be decimated by a size restriction on yellowtail.

Nobody is saying that yellowtails will become extinct. I am merely saying that by putting in a restriction on SIZE, it would allow a better CHANCE of a local population that stays around. That is not unreasonable. On the other hand, you have no lower size limit, it decimates the population every time they come back north when the water gets warmer.
This is an assumption. There is no proof that yellowtail can spawn in California except during warm water years. And no proof that when they do spawn, the spawn stays in California. Local yellowtail - the home guards - are nearly always large fish. I don't think that's a coincidence. It's like BFT - many of those fish stay in our waters for years offshore, but there's no evidence that they spawn here and so no evidence that we can actually create a local population through stronger laws.

Your comparison to the rockfish closure is not the same. That is an outright ban on fishing rockfish during certain time of the season. The yellowtail restriction is only on the minimum size. I would wager to bet the ban also helps give the rockfish a chance during spawning season. I have been noticing a lot more smaller reds and other rockfish ever since the ban has been in place. It means there is a chance of having a more sustainable resource in the long run. Nobody in the sportfishing business benefits from a species becoming scarce.

I would argue that having more yellowtail caught throughout the year would benefit sportfishing more than just to catch them during El Nino years and have them disappear entirely for 7-8 years until the next cycle.
Again, you're operating off of a complete assumption. Arguing for stronger laws on the basis of an assumption is what created the marine protection zones. You want to go through that again?
 

Azarkon

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Are you serious? If you can bounce a yellowtail, it needs to go back into the water. They grow very fast and a 5 lb yellowtail is a baby. It may not even be one year old yet. Rockfish is not even in the same league since they grow at a much slower pace. Stop comparing the two. If I caught a 5 lb rockfish, I would release it back into the wild to spawn again. The same applies to large sheephead.

Let's put it this way, if you are too embarrassed to post picture of the YT you caught, its too small. Some of the YT caught on the cattle boat and kept are smaller than the bonitos.
You seem to ignore the fact that 99% of the tuna we catch are also baby fish. Why the double standard? People need to get off the out dated belief that minimum size is a holy grail. Recent marine biology research has almost universally shown that selective targeting of large fish is terrible for a population. Should you want to practice conservation, you should actually release the large yellowtail as much as you release the small yellowtail.

Population structure is much more important to maintain that count alone, since the year classes tend to have similar behavior so the chances of a stock being wiped out by a bad year class is much less when there is a diversity of year classes. This could easily happen when people selectively target large fish, since there is always less large fish in a stock. So say you selectively target large yellowtail and nearly wipe out the yellowtail > 28 inches in a year - what happens when the next year class fails to recruit? The whole stock collapses, that's what. By contrast, had you distributed pressure between large and small yellowtail, such that 50% of both survive, this will never happen.

In short, the current belief is that when you harvest from all year classes equally, but avoid year classes in which the recruitment was poor, it's better for the fish, than when you target ONLY large fish or ONLY small fish.
 
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Azarkon

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Since you say over and over there is a lack of data on yellows shouldn't such a situation be treated carefully to protect such a regal fish...
The regulations for yellowtail have stayed the same for decades without stock collapse, so no, I don't think this is a situation where sufficient caution hasn't already been shown, not to mention I believe recent conditions of the California current have been favoring yellowtail. Knowledge is the answer to fear, not locking yourself in a room. Want to improve the condition of yellowtail? Then both practically and as a matter of principle you should be supporting more research on the stock, not more poorly informed regulations.

We don't need more laws based on fear, and we definitely don't want to set more of a precedent for laws based on fear. And the best way to counter environmentalist bias in academics, is to sponsor our own research. This is what the fishing associations should be doing, and in case we're that worried about it, then we should put money down.
 
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fishkilr

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The regulations for yellowtail have stayed the same for decades, so no, I don't think this is a situation where sufficient caution hasn't already been shown, not to mention I believe recent conditions of the California current have been favoring yellowtail. As I said above, knowledge is the answer to fear, not locking yourself in a room. Want to improve the condition of yellowtail? Then both practically and as a matter of principle you should be supporting more research on the stock, not more poorly informed regulations.

We don't need more laws based on fear, and we definitely don't want to set more of a precedent for laws based on fear. And the best way to counter environmentalist bias in academics, is to sponsor our own research. This is what the fishing association should be doing, and why we should pay money to see it happen.
You still don't get it...
Laws based on fear?
My view has nothing to do with lawmaking or fear or anything else except that yellows are the ultimate gamefish in my opinion and strictly based on that I hate to see little dead ones that never had the opportunity to turn into what were all lookin for..
I know it sounds crazy but there is no political statement behind my feelings at all..
My opinion hasn't been formed from being locked in a room but rather being locked to a rail...
 

Azarkon

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You still don't get it...
Laws based on fear?
My view has nothing to do with lawmaking or fear or anything else except that yellows are the ultimate gamefish in my opinion and strictly based on that I hate to see little dead ones that never had the opportunity to turn into what were all lookin for..
I know it sounds crazy but there is no political statement behind my feelings at all..
My opinion hasn't been formed from being locked in a room but rather being locked to a rail...
I don't question the fact that your feelings and concern are genuine; what I question is the value of feelings.

What you don't seem to get is that yellows are a top of the list fish for many guys that fish often... it is my personal favorite and seeing limits of dead peanut yellows killed before they got the opportunity to become that freight training structure seeking missile that we get the pleasure to battle makes a lot of guys sick...
This species holds a special place in the hearts of many experienced guys and they will defend it regardless of data ..
This is a defense of ignorance. How in the world can you simply assume that you're doing right by the fish population when you don't even attempt to do the necessary research? How do you know a minimum size limit is going to result in significantly more quality fish? All the while marine biologists are increasingly warning about population structure destruction via selective targeting of large fish?
 

crabdancer

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IMG_1662.PNG

Conehead, please stop with the 'we.' Represent yourself.

I know the internet has this illusion that all are equal and so are their opinions, but you're arguing for the sake of arguing with people I've known and looked up to since before the internet.

Since you've got the internet, google Kant's antinomy of pure reason. Basically if you argue a point to its bitter end the contradictions that eventually come into play negate the original position.

Or, we could all go kill some fish. The choice is ours.
 
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fishkilr

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I don't question the fact that your feelings and concern are genuine; what I question is the value of feelings.



This is a defense of ignorance. How in the world can you simply assume that you're doing right by the fish population when you don't even attempt to do the necessary research? How do you know a minimum size limit is going to result in significantly more quality fish? All the while marine biologists are increasingly warning about population structure destruction via selective targeting of large fish?
I only said I don't like to see small dead yellows...
If to you that's ignorant then we come from two different worlds and the debate is pointless
 
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Azarkon

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I only said I don't like to see small dead yellows...
If to you that's ignorant then we come from two different worlds and the debate is pointless
What's ignorant is to insist that research isn't needed before regulations are changed. I have no problem with you or anyone saying that you don't like to see small dead yellowtail. I do have a problem with saying no data is needed to justify a significant change in yellowtail laws.

Fish management laws aren't and shouldn't be based on feelings. They should be based on solid evidence, nothing less. In case we can't agree on that then indeed, nothing more to discuss.
 

Azarkon

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Your gonna have to show me where I said anything remotely close to that..
This is what I said:

"This yellowtail scare is much closer to the latter than the former. It’s just like the marine protection zones, but worse because there they had a small amount of data and research to back them up where as here we have none.

Like I said, it’s not hard to get informed and anyone who is informed know there’s been no recent studies of yellowtail populations and no anecdotal evidence either that the population is struggling. Any change would be based on fear rather than data."

This is what you said:

"Since you say over and over there is a lack of data on yellows shouldn't such a situation be treated carefully to protect such a regal fish...
What you don't seem to get is that yellows are a top of the list fish for many guys that fish often... it is my personal favorite and seeing limits of dead peanut yellows killed before they got the opportunity to become that freight training structure seeking missile that we get the pleasure to battle makes a lot of guys sick...
This species holds a special place in the hearts of many experienced guys and they will defend it regardless of data .."

I was arguing that there needs to be data before any changes are made. You responded by saying this situation should be treated carefully and that "many experienced guys" like yourself will "defend it regardless of data..."

So what's the argument here? I'm assuming you were talking about making it illegal to keep small fish.
 
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fishkilr

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This is what I said:

"This yellowtail scare is much closer to the latter than the former. It’s just like the marine protection zones, but worse because there they had a small amount of data and research to back them up where as here we have none.

Like I said, it’s not hard to get informed and anyone who is informed know there’s been no recent studies of yellowtail populations and no anecdotal evidence either that the population is struggling. Any change would be based on fear rather than data."

This is what you said:

"Since you say over and over there is a lack of data on yellows shouldn't such a situation be treated carefully to protect such a regal fish...
What you don't seem to get is that yellows are a top of the list fish for many guys that fish often... it is my personal favorite and seeing limits of dead peanut yellows killed before they got the opportunity to become that freight training structure seeking missile that we get the pleasure to battle makes a lot of guys sick...
This species holds a special place in the hearts of many experienced guys and they will defend it regardless of data .."

I was arguing that there needs to be data before any changes are made. You responded by saying this situation should be treated carefully and that "many experienced guys" like yourself will "defend it regardless of data..."

So what's the argument here? I'm assuming you were talking about making it illegal to keep small fish.
It's your assumptions that many people have a problem with....
Why can't you take a statement at face value instead of assuming it means something contradictory to your agenda..?
This is why you are always alone in defending your position against several members at a time...
Is it possible that you need to change your method of debating to get more respect on this site?
I guess that's a decision you have to make but the data is indisputable....
 

Azarkon

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It's your assumptions that many people have a problem with....
Why can't you take a statement at face value instead of assuming it means something contradictory to your agenda..?
This is why you are always alone in defending your position against several members at a time...
Is it possible that you need to change your method of debating to get more respect on this site?
I guess that's a decision you have to make but the data is indisputable....
I'll keep that in mind, thanks. When people quote me and respond in the negative I assume they're arguing against what I just said, but goal should always be to keep misunderstanding to a minimum.