Splicing Needles

Tsmithson

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  • Jun 8, 2021
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    Thomas Smithson
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    In the spirit of pressing forward and learning something new.
    I purchased the DaHo Hollow Spectra Needle Tools (CFLRSET) from Charkbait.
    It contains 7 threading, 3 loop, 3 reverse needles for 50#-200#. I figured I’ll study and practice making some windon‘s, then start destructive testing to see where the system fails and at what weight.
    I still need to rig up a clamping system and find a good bobbin.

    I want to thank everyone for their Post’s.

    There are different ways to tie knots, serving and lines that can be classified as good, better or best. I am thankful for those who are willing to share. I have walked into a well known Tackle shop where a gentleman would stop working on rigging knife Jigs whenever someone looked so they could not see how he tied his knots.

    I might not be able to tie “better“ and “best” but I guarantee I will go from “can‘t” to “bad” to “ok”to “good” very quickly thanks to everyone on BD’s.
     
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    jiggermyster

    Goin' out...
    Dec 12, 2003
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    2. Wire is great for making end loops and inline splices but useless for threading mono and fluorocarbon.
    Sure... because wire is not used to thread mono or fluorocarbon.

    Wire can be used to relax and expand the hollow before inserting mono or fluorocarbon.

    Properly prepped mono and fluorocarbon slides up hollow just as easy as a needle.

    Needles do make threading lighter mono, say <25# easier.
     
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    Tuna-Sniper

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    did the Daho kit come with a latch needle ?

    you don't need to buy the clamp kit to spin the bobbin and the bobbin from Amazon is less then $20.
    here is another tutorial I learned from without using clamps.
    Amazon product
     
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    JohnTFT

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    Sure... because wire is not used to thread mono or fluorocarbon.

    Wire can be used to relax and expand the hollow before inserting mono or fluorocarbon.

    Properly prepped mono and fluorocarbon slides up hollow just as easy as a needle.

    Needles do make threading lighter mono, say <25# easier.
    I would say that a cup of water and the smallest loop needle works much better at loosing up a stubborn weave than a piece of wire.

    Again I didnt say you needed needles to make insertions, its just way more efficient.
     
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    JohnTFT

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    did the Daho kit come with a latch needle ?

    you don't need to buy the clamp kit to spin the bobbin and the bobbin from Amazon is less then $20.
    here is another tutorial I learned from without using clamps.
    If you use that method to serve a double wall windon or topshot - it will fail.

    That is for creating a PR knot.

    When serving the insertion in a double wall or single wall windon or topshot - the serve has to be done under pressure. At some point the serve will bear the entire load of the connection. Serving under tension is the only way to insure the serve will not fail.
     
    T
    Tsmithson
    JohnTFT,
    Is it possible to point me in the right direction to learn the “better“ or “best” practices on make windon’s, splicing, serving and dressing?

    OR

    Is the only way to learn “Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little“ to get to “better“ and “best”?

    Thanks
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    Bill W

    tunaholic
  • Jan 12, 2006
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    The problem with any serve is keeping one side from moving. As on and off pulling will transfer the grab of the Chinese finger trap from one side to the other. It puts increased pressure to move the serve in a long fight. The next issue is where the leader end slides into the hollow. If the leader is not shaped like a bullet it will catch on the hollow spectra and either poke out of the hollow or damage the hollow. The leader must be able to move back and forth in the hollow at the end. On post #6 the nub connection does a very good job of holding the serve at that spot, but have several times had the leader poke out of the spectra on the leader end. BHP leaders are served stretching the leader causing leader to get smaller diameter and then they serve it. They also double the spectra and do not have problems with the leaders popping out at the end.
     
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    Bill W

    tunaholic
  • Jan 12, 2006
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    A pen vice works for me to get a bullet shape on the end of the leader. With the leader about a quarter inch out hold it straight on wet/dry sheet and make circles. That makes the proper bullet shape.
     
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    JohnTFT

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    JohnTFT,
    Is it possible to point me in the right direction to learn the “better“ or “best” practices Uon make windon’s, splicing, serving and dressing?

    OR

    Is the only way to learn “Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little“ to get to “better“ and “best”?

    This could take a very long time.

    The easiest way to make your own topshots or windons is to do an insertion 4-5' into the hollow spectra. That is easy to do. Just match your hollow to your line size and you will be fine there.

    80lb hollow (C16) is a great choice for 80lb through some 130 lines - (.85mm-1.28mm).

    How you do the serve is the key.

    Keeping the line stretched and tight is very important. 2 mechanics vises with heater hose in the jaws to protect the line is a great inexpensive way to accomplish this.

    If you want the best this is the tool you want http://bhptackle.com/home.php?cat=104

    You can use the BHP tool as is for Inline insertions not for double wall insertions.

    Use a bowstring serving tool - Beiter Winder to accomplish this. Its weighted. It develops a huge amount of tension by using centrifugal force to create the serve. You can find it here - http://bhptackle.com/home.php?cat=80

    Finish your serves not with 1/2 hitches and Rizzutos or Nail knots but with a buried connection as if you were attaching guides on a fishing rod.

    There are many videos out there that show the finishing technique.

    Its a trial and error process - test, test, test.
    Dont bring something offshore that you havent tested.

    Do - Bring some BHP products. Why take a chance?
     
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    Tuna-Sniper

    Tuna Sniper
    Oct 26, 2015
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    If you use that method to serve a double wall windon or topshot - it will fail.

    That is for creating a PR knot.

    When serving the insertion in a double wall or single wall windon or topshot - the serve has to be done under pressure. At some point the serve will bear the entire load of the connection. Serving under tension is the only way to insure the serve will not fail.
    I mostly hunt cow tuna on my boat. I caught 57 BF with many over 200#, two close to 300# in 2020 and 37 BF this year serving hollow cord with a bobbin. I have not had one failure yet.

    your tension is adjusted with the knob on the bobbin not the tag line. I adjust the knob on the bobbin tight to the point where my fingers hurt when I spin it.

    I caught many BF in the mid 250# last year with zero failure and yes, I tested my serves and knots shown above.

    285# BF.jpg
     
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    Steve K

    Hey, I'm gettin' bit...
    Jan 2, 2005
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    18' Bayrunner, but I like the American Angler and the Red Rooster III
    If you’re going to go “all in” with the recommendations here on getting the right equipment, wind-on jig, the winder, needles, hollow spectra, and the fluorocarbon, looks like its going to set you back $500-600. If you’ve got the money and the time, go for it.

    Or you could take John’s final bit of advice, Buy some BHP Products! :)
     
    T
    Tsmithson
    I think I may slowdown on building my own Windon’s and quickly move forward on learning the FG knot first. I only have $120 in new threading needles and $13 in dressing.
    I will still make some windon’s later (I love learning and doing new things).
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    CMYSIX

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    If you’re going to go “all in” with the recommendations here on getting the right equipment, wind-on jig, the winder, needles, hollow spectra, and the fluorocarbon, looks like its going to set you back $500-600. If you’ve got the money and the time, go for it.

    Or you could take John’s final bit of advice, Buy some BHP Products! :)
    BHP is more then welcome to my $, for what he charges, I have better things to do then trying to beat Basil at his game.
     
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    bigreddog

    Get off of my lawn
    Jul 18, 2005
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    I always go back to the Royal Star
    To the OP-a served connection done perfectly with a ton of trial and error and two tons of testing is the strongest of all connections.

    That said, self-made or locally purchased inserted connections have had more failures than any other connection, by a very wide margin, when it comes to YFT fishing on long trips. Many long rangers have been down this road before, and failures have been a part of the journey for many of us.

    Anyone that has done long trips has seen multiple failures. They still occur frequently, even by good and experienced anglers. Ask any crew member!

    My journey perfecting these leaders lasted for more than 15 years, and many hundreds of hours, resulting in some of the stealthiest, strongest, and best leaders that can be had.

    I no longer build them for me or my customers.

    Now I tie an FG. If I ever needed a wind-on in the future I would buy BHP or ask my friend in Utah. He builds the best there are in my opinion.

    Pros of the FG: No inventory, total adaptability to size, combinations of materials, and length. No extra tools, no spectra tricks, no hollow spectra. And the best part is they fish a sardine much better. Better casting, no Curley Q's, or twisted up spectra.

    What I know now, after becoming competent and extensively testing and fishing both connections, is the learning curve is way steeper using inserted connections.

    Use the time saved to improve in other areas of long-range fishing.

    Many anglers say that they have never had a failure, but do not have a real testing system. That is risky unless you are fishing so much that you don't care if you lose one. A testing system is easy to engineer, and you can test in a way that is much more demanding than anything you will ever encounter on a boat. If you do that, it prevents the doubt that creeps in with many anglers when they hook the fish of a lifetime. It's best to have total confidence in your connections, and that only comes from testing or huge amounts of time on the water.

    Good luck!

    Edited because of the whiskey used in the first drafting.
     
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    T
    Tsmithson
    I’m sold!
    Time to learn the FG knot.

    So are you using braid on all your reels with the FG knot or are there times and reasons that you are using Spectra?

    Thanks
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    Tuna-Sniper

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    here goes and make your own decision. Yes, I tested the FG and they all broke in the middle just like the tests here in a recent video. Mabey some FG experts could explain.

     
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    Bill W

    tunaholic
  • Jan 12, 2006
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    here goes and make your own decision. Yes, I tested the FG and they all broke in the middle just like the tests here in a recent video. Mabey some FG experts could explain.

    Hi Tom…
    Appreciate you showing me the PR and you have a bullet proof connection. Yes… on a dry FG when tested it does break in the middle of the knot. But it is very consistent for the number of wraps used. What makes the FG popular is it is a very quick connection. Very small and stealthy, casts well and if set correctly will not slip. One thing that is hard to explain is while the PR knot is stronger the FG is above testing anything you can pull on any rod. The point being I have not seen any failure of the FG. As you said the knot breaks in the middle of the knot and you would know if the knot failed when fished. The connection that you need to beat is the hook connection. So… Multiply the guys using the FG and no failures reported. Maybe in the water it is even stronger due to cooling. I am more concerned about getting chewed off personally…
     
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    Fishybuzz

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    To the OP-a served connection done perfectly with a ton of trial and error and two tons of testing is the strongest of all connections.

    That said, inserted connections have had more failures than any other connection, by a very wide margin, when it comes to YFT fishing on long trips. Many long rangers have been down this road before, and failures have been a part of the journey for many of us.

    Anyone that has done long trips has seen multiple failures. They still occur frequently, even by good and experienced anglers. Ask any crew member!

    My journey perfecting these leaders lasted for more than 15 years, and many hundreds of hours, resulting in some of the stealthiest, strongest, and best leaders that can be had.

    I no longer build them for me or my customers.

    Now I tie an FG. If I ever needed a wind-on in the future I would buy BHP, or ask my friend in Utah. He builds the best there are in my opinion.

    Pros of the FG: No inventory, total adaptability to size, combinations of materials, and length, no tools, no spectra tricks, no hollow spectra, no tools to carry on the boat, no carpal tunnel, comparatively minor learning curve. And the best part is they fish better! Nothing compares while sardine fishing in slack, hot conditions. No Curley Q's, twisted spectra, spectra loops, casting issues, etc. Your bait will swim better.

    My opinion is that you spend your time and money learning other things to further your journey. You will progress faster in important areas if instead you buy wind-ons, or learn to tie a knot. Use the time saved to get better at other areas of long-range fishing and rigging.

    Many anglers say that they have never had a failure, but do not have a real testing system. That is risky unless you are fishing so much that you don't care if you lose one. A real testing system is easy to engineer, and you can test in a way that is much more demanding than anything you will ever encounter on a boat. If you do that, it prevents the doubt that creeps in with most anglers when they hook the fish of a lifetime. Do you want to pull 40+ pounds of drag on a big one, or be scared to go past 30?
    30 pounds of drag kills the angler, 40 pounds kills the fish!* in calm conditions! It's best to have total confidence, and that only comes from testing or huge amounts of time on the water.

    Good luck!
    EXACTLY why I also having been down the same road as bigreddog I switched to the FG 5 years ago....
     
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    migelito

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    I've been making my own windons for years. Never had a failure. Started out with the smitty needles polishing them really helped. Now I only use two DaHo needles when making windons. A loop small needle for opening up the hollow spectra and a reverse latch when I want to make a loop for premade loop to loop windons. You could also leave a longer length of spectra and make an inline splice from your windon to your mainline.
    My Premade served windons are what I have the most confidence in. Like most techniques or knots use what you have the most confidence in you'll pull longer and harder. I've recently used the FG knot on some 60 to 100# setups. Who knows Maybe eventually I'll switch to all FG knots on my 60-130# setups
     
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    Tsmithson

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  • Jun 8, 2021
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    WOW.
    This “thread on needles” has turned out to be a real saga leading into a clash of the titans.
    FG VS Wind On Leaders.
    World class big game fishermen with world class advice.

    I am so humbled and so grateful to live in a time and on a forum where I/we could get such great advice, so quickly, from so many of the greatest fishermen on this planet.
    To all a heartfelt Thank You.

    As of this moment I don’t plan on risking my next several big trips using a Wind On made by me. I will purchase a few from BHP.

    I am still excited about learning how to make Wind On‘s and now the FG also.

    Tight lines and strong knots.
     
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    Bill W

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  • Jan 12, 2006
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    If you go to the FG side you might experiment with the number of wraps. You can use a crane scale or just tie two FG’s in line and pull with come-a-long or chain hoist. Cover the line for safety.
    My tests show 8 wraps for 80# plus and 10 wraps for lower tests like 65# to 50# mono.
     
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    Fishybuzz

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    Hi Tom…
    Appreciate you showing me the PR and you have a bullet proof connection. Yes… on a dry FG when tested it does break in the middle of the knot. But it is very consistent for the number of wraps used. What makes the FG popular is it is a very quick connection. Very small and stealthy, casts well and if set correctly will not slip. One thing that is hard to explain is while the PR knot is stronger the FG is above testing anything you can pull on any rod. The point being I have not seen any failure of the FG. As you said the knot breaks in the middle of the knot and you would know if the knot failed when fished. The connection that you need to beat is the hook connection. So… Multiply the guys using the FG and no failures reported. Maybe in the water it is even stronger due to cooling. I am more concerned about getting chewed off personally…
    If you go to the FG side you might experiment with the number of wraps. You can use a crane scale or just tie two FG’s in line and pull with come-a-long or chain hoist. Cover the line for safety.
    My tests show 8 wraps for 80# plus and 10 wraps for lower tests like 65# to 50# mono.
    Bill 8 wraps total or 16???? we have found 16 to be the sweet spot....for over 80#
     
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    JohnTFT

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    This never gets old for me.

    So now the bullet proof connection - the FG has some variances with how many turns you do making a stronger connection?

    Of course it does. You know what else effects its strength? The material used.

    In all of my testing - tying one in hollow always out performs an FG tied in solid.

    You know what else effects its strength? How you set the knot. How you set the Rizzuto.

    So - if you are talking about variances in knot strength - all of those factors will lead to premature failures.

    Those of you who have never had an FG fail are no different than people making their own windons who have not had failures. Attention to detail and consistency in application.

    Incorrectly made windons are no different. In the other thread where the windon on failed the OP used the wrong hollow to make it.

    In season - I do hundreds of FG's and even more inline insertions.

    To keep consistency we only allow 2 people in the shop do them.

    BHP - he does every single serve. Every one.

    Why? Because people fuck up consistently. That is fact. FG's or windons no different.

    Lets move on to something that amuses me even more -

    The FG catches more fish because..........

    Its Sunday - The Giants lost, Verstappen didnt win the championship and I just put up Christmas lights - I need a little humor on a bad sports Sunday.

    If I remember correctly from my philosphy classes - Tautological arguments -

    Who doesnt love them?
     
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    Bill W
    Bill W
    The Chargers won and the Rams are up 10-0
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    Steve K
    Steve K
    Tautological, had to look that up.

    What’s a good reel for Wahoo Bombs? :)
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    JohnTFT
    JohnTFT
    Bill - trying to be a football fan in NY is challenging. Whats really screwed up is Buffalo the only NY team is quite good yet us downstate provincial types well you know.

    Steve - Boots which ones are best?
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    CMYSIX

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    JohnTFT

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    Buffalo is another country. If they moved to Austin no one would care. 5 boroughs and Long Island, that's NY.
    And we New Yorkers have the gall to call the teams from New Jersey - The New York football teams.
     
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    Tuna-Sniper

    Tuna Sniper
    Oct 26, 2015
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    Hi Tom…
    Appreciate you showing me the PR and you have a bullet proof connection. Yes… on a dry FG when tested it does break in the middle of the knot. But it is very consistent for the number of wraps used. What makes the FG popular is it is a very quick connection. Very small and stealthy, casts well and if set correctly will not slip. One thing that is hard to explain is while the PR knot is stronger the FG is above testing anything you can pull on any rod. The point being I have not seen any failure of the FG. As you said the knot breaks in the middle of the knot and you would know if the knot failed when fished. The connection that you need to beat is the hook connection. So… Multiply the guys using the FG and no failures reported. Maybe in the water it is even stronger due to cooling. I am more concerned about getting chewed off personally…
    Hey Bill, I tested the FG again 2x today for 80 braid and 80 mono and they both broke away from the knot :)

    lock it with two 1/2 hitches and a 6 wrap Rizzuto finish correct ?
     
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    Bill W
    Bill W
    I do not do any half hitches. Just the Rizzuto.
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