So did everyone know fluoro breaks at less than 50%???

afraser

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So on a recent trip we did a bunch of tests on fluoro and mono. I was shocked to find out all, and I mean all, of the fluoro under 80lb broke at less than 50% of the line rating. If you’re fishing 60 fluoro, you’re really fishing 25-28# line, sometimes 15# line. 4 different anglers tied knots, with 4-5 brands of line. Pro spec was the worst at 15-20%, seaguar premier was 40-45%, blue label a bit above 45%, black water was older so maybe that explains the 30%. At 80lb, the breaking strength did get to 50-55%. Still...

Conversely, mono tested at or above line rating. 30# was consistently over 30, with knots , 3 different brands, sun drenched izorline, momoi, and pline.

Did everyone know this? Why would I fish 60 fluoro when 30lb mono is stronger, thinner, and more supple? 30lb mono breaks much higher than 60lb fluoro??? Maybe I’ll try more mono leader in the future with circle hooks to avoid the abraision issue.
 

afraser

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This is BS
Um, no. We did the tests, an engineer had previously done the tests and showed us in person. Yes it is knot strength, but unless we're fishing differently, everyone has to tie a knot to connect their hook or terminal tackle. So non-knot strength is irrelevant other than for marketing. Mono consistently broke above 100% of rating, fluoro below 50% of rating. Not BS, actual experimentation. The reason I mentioned multiple tied knots was to take user error out of the equation.
 
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2Rotten

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I have tested the San Diego Jam knot with the Okuma Softsteel Fluoro-Stretch leader multiple times, test is dead lifting lead weight, I get 100% rating nearly every time. The knot strength of this stretchable fluorocarbon is every bit as good as monofilament and measurably better than any of the other brands of fluorocarbon I have tested.

Note, if you want to prove to yourself that it is the knot and not the line, use a crimp or just wrap your leader material around something strong for your test. You will be able to lift 100% of line rating without the knot. I have done this test many times; sufficient to be confident in my results; YMMV. With most fluorocarbon leader material it is difficult for me to get over 75% line strength with any of several highly rated knots.

No, I am not (knot??? Ha Ha!) associated with Okuma or any other fishing company. I'm just kind of a knot geek and have done a bunch of testing on my work bench.
 

af dreamer

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I just got done testing Berkley Biggame on a IGFA line machine.EVERY test was WAY above labeled weight.50 was 70,30 was 43 and 20 was 31.I did Softsteel and 40 was 48 and 80 was 97.Remember this is with no knots.Going to test some diff floros this week.Tom
 

RideHPD

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For the record, just an engineer being involved really means nothing, as most of them are complete idiots.

Describe in detail how the testing was performed.

I can pull somewhere around 40-42lbs of force with my arms, but I can't break a proper knot tied with 30lb fluoro. The test you all performed is most likely irrelevant for our purposes, and I'll explain why.

Fluorocarbon lines differ drastically from mono nylon in many regards, but most importantly are their mechanical responses with respect to loading rate. Ironically, fluoro "shock" leaders do very poorly when "snapped" tight or otherwise loaded very quickly, as the internal stresses develop very quickly, and may fail at applied loads less than the nominal test rating. When these lines are loaded at slower rates, the polymer chains inside of the line have more time to rearrange, and the resulting internal stress state in the material is significantly lower, which translates to failure of the line being experienced at higher applied loads. In short, the strength of the line or even an individual tied knot is not even a fixed number. Mono is subject to the same effect, but is less pronounced because of the relative stiffnesses of each material and the differences in how the lines are manufactured. Unfortunately this is predominately controlled by the latter and more complex to explain, but the other takeaway is that this is probably why the Seaguar products outperformed Blackwater and Pro Spec, those fluoros are a bit harder and stiffer, results I would expect.

But back to real life, if this were really a problem you'd have people blowing line left and right and no one would use fluorocarbon, but that's not the case so we know these test results are meaningless to us as anglers. I'm not going to go into the physics of it, but even when you have your drag set at 25% of your line test the tension at the knot will easily exceed 50% on a solid tuna run. So what gives? The bow in the line, the line being dragged through the water, the bend in the rod, even the play in your arms will spread the impulse out and slow the application of load down to avoid failures like this.
 

af dreamer

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OK,went to the T/C today and did some testing on floro that I actually have on the boat.I did not do 3 for each one as that was more time than I wanted to give.I just pulled it once.Here is what I did.
Seagar 25lb .0175 dia. broke at 34.6
Seagar 50lb .0375 dia broke at 63
maxima 25lb .0175 dia broke at 27.8
maxima 30lb .0210 dia broke at 40.5
maxima 40lb .0225 dia broke at 44.5
maxima 100 .0415 dia broke at 122
Stren 100 .0410 dia broke at 117
Cajon 80 .0365 dia broke at 75.9
Ande 40lb .0240 dia broke at 49.8
these were all labeled floro

For snicks it test some soft steal I had with me.
Non floro mono
40lb .240 dia broke at 50.5
The machine just came back from being certified
Dia was actually measured by me.
Also remember line looses strength when wet
IGFA soaks line for 2 hours before testing
From history of my own testing it looses about 5%

Dont shoot the messenger
 

2Rotten

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I believe the OP was talking about knot strength of the different brands of fluorocarbon, not necessarily line strength.
 

af dreamer

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Has to start somewhere!I think knot strength comes from too many variables to make a statement.Tom
 

Lake

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Did one test last night. My Seaguar 30# broke at the knot- 24#. I'm actually a little disappointed in that.
 

2Rotten

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Did one test last night. My Seaguar 30# broke at the knot- 24#. I'm actually a little disappointed in that.
Your results are on average better than mine... 25# was the most I could get with Seaguar 30#, often it broke around 21-22#. Using San Diego Jam. I tried several other reportedly strong knots as well, with similar results.

The Okuma fluoro-stretch is the only fluorocarbon leader (out of 4 brands I have tested) that has given me consistent 100% knot strength, like I almost always get with mono... I assume the difference is the softer feel to the Okuma fluoro, so there is less severe bending (damage) during the cinching process. I have tried both saliva and chap stick during the cinching process, both performed better than dry but not as strong as I would have liked.
 

UnBelievable

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Answer is very simple. Improper storage of floro before or after sale will cause this. If floro gets hot it’s shot. Order it from somewhere hot and this is the result. I test every spool of floro on receipt. If it breaks I send it back. Build your own breaking machine for under 50 bucks. Makes sense when you spend thousands on a long range trip. You can practice your knots and test them. The shocking find for myself is over 60 percent of crimped trolling or string knots break at 40 percent or less. The guy doing the crimping gets tired I guess. Loose a 60 dollar nomad due to a badly crimped bridal and you figure it out quickly. I’ve tested flatfalls that failed at 30lbs. Some lessons are hard learned. DONT BE THAT GUY!!!! Best of luck to you.
 

geebee

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...if you want to prove to yourself that it is the knot and not the line, use a crimp...
brilliant
grandma used to say: seeing is believing...

the manufacturers should at least put manufacture dates on their fishing line - may be more useful than expiration or use by dates
 

effigy

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Which one? Too many....
Your results are on average better than mine... 25# was the most I could get with Seaguar 30#, often it broke around 21-22#.
Rod, which Seaguar? Blue label or Premier? Or ???
 

2Rotten

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Rod, which Seaguar? Blue label or Premier? Or ???
I tested Blue Label, Premier and Yo-Zuri Pink. I think I'm just knot-challenged when it comes to fluorocarbon. I've had Albacore break 30# fluoro on the first run, with 14# of drag using 30# fluoro, breaking at the knot (not often, but it has happened...) This past sesaon in Oregon I tested the Okuma stretchable fluoro and did not experience any failures on fish or on the testing bench. I used it on my recent 2.75 day charter on the New Lo-An, unfortunately our trip came after the big blows, and other than a bunch of small fish the first day the boat only caught 1 big BFT and it wasn't on my rod...
 
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kevina

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Go test the Okuma/ Soft Steel. That is one of the toughest lines/their fluoro carbon. That stuff breaks probably 25% higher than It's rated, After you do that, Talk to me.
 

aguachico

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I have found that if you take a floro leader and stretch it to the breaking point and it breaks, the recoil damages the leader. It almost looks crinkly. That leader is wasted. Seen mainly on newer model thinner floro and 20-30#
 

ontheline

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You are better off going by line diameter and matching it to your mono than by rating. It normally puts me up a size in floro to get the same dia. And after testing, the matching dia floro breaks just a little under the mono.
 
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Mandaragat

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So on a recent trip we did a bunch of tests on fluoro and mono. I was shocked to find out all, and I mean all, of the fluoro under 80lb broke at less than 50% of the line rating. If you’re fishing 60 fluoro, you’re really fishing 25-28# line, sometimes 15# line. 4 different anglers tied knots, with 4-5 brands of line. Pro spec was the worst at 15-20%, seaguar premier was 40-45%, blue label a bit above 45%, black water was older so maybe that explains the 30%. At 80lb, the breaking strength did get to 50-55%. Still...

Conversely, mono tested at or above line rating. 30# was consistently over 30, with knots , 3 different brands, sun drenched izorline, momoi, and pline.

Did everyone know this? Why would I fish 60 fluoro when 30lb mono is stronger, thinner, and more supple? 30lb mono breaks much higher than 60lb fluoro??? Maybe I’ll try more mono leader in the future with circle hooks to avoid the abraision issue.
Anyone used the PR/FG knot or wind-on and tested for strength on the boat? I know for a fact that non-friction knots require tight loops or bends on the Fluoro and that damages the physical structure of the material.
 

afraser

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For the record, just an engineer being involved really means nothing, as most of them are complete idiots.

Describe in detail how the testing was performed.

I can pull somewhere around 40-42lbs of force with my arms, but I can't break a proper knot tied with 30lb fluoro. The test you all performed is most likely irrelevant for our purposes, and I'll explain why.

Fluorocarbon lines differ drastically from mono nylon in many regards, but most importantly are their mechanical responses with respect to loading rate. Ironically, fluoro "shock" leaders do very poorly when "snapped" tight or otherwise loaded very quickly, as the internal stresses develop very quickly, and may fail at applied loads less than the nominal test rating. When these lines are loaded at slower rates, the polymer chains inside of the line have more time to rearrange, and the resulting internal stress state in the material is significantly lower, which translates to failure of the line being experienced at higher applied loads. In short, the strength of the line or even an individual tied knot is not even a fixed number. Mono is subject to the same effect, but is less pronounced because of the relative stiffnesses of each material and the differences in how the lines are manufactured. Unfortunately this is predominately controlled by the latter and more complex to explain, but the other takeaway is that this is probably why the Seaguar products outperformed Blackwater and Pro Spec, those fluoros are a bit harder and stiffer, results I would expect.

But back to real life, if this were really a problem you'd have people blowing line left and right and no one would use fluorocarbon, but that's not the case so we know these test results are meaningless to us as anglers. I'm not going to go into the physics of it, but even when you have your drag set at 25% of your line test the tension at the knot will easily exceed 50% on a solid tuna run. So what gives? The bow in the line, the line being dragged through the water, the bend in the rod, even the play in your arms will spread the impulse out and slow the application of load down to avoid failures like this.
So I understand where you are coming from and I was exactly there before these recent tests. Pretty much everyone sets their drags at 1/3 to 1/4 max line strength, so breaking at 40% won’t be an issue until you get deep into the spool or crank up your drag. We used a digital scale, tied terminal knots to it and pulled or leaned away gradually until we broke the line. We had multiple people tie knots to eliminate user error on the knots, which were all wet before being cinched. It’s a bigger deal with fluoro under 80lbs, which is all the bft would bite during the day. I appreciate the tests above, but without testing knot strength, it is only a starting point. If you can get more than 80% out of a knot tied in fluoro, I will certainly try it. For example, I will be trying the soft
steel. I will also try more mono. But most of the time lines will experience some shock tension in a fight, which does affect fluoro more than mono, but we weren’t even testing that. I’ve fished fluoro since it came out, but if I can get away with half the diameter in mono with the same strength, I think it would be worth it in pick bites. I use circle hooks, so abraision resistance isn’t as important. Any specific line recommendations woul$ be very helpful. Thanks.
 
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