Short Cow Leaders and Fuel Surcharge Question?

Discussion in 'San Diego Long Range fishing Reports' started by Normmclean, Nov 23, 2012.

  1. Fishybuzz

    Fishybuzz fishybuzz

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    David Tang
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    Hey Bill we need to go fishing together again ....been a long time.....either I have to go over to the chicken or you jump in on I boat....:2gunsfiring_v1:
     
  2. cudun

    cudun Member

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    LUAN
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    I'd say his watch needs a battery replacement !
     
  3. JohnTFT

    JohnTFT Insomniac

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    I am always worried about super short topshots and chafing off on many parts of the fish. Bluefin fishing in the Northeast, we see tremendous evidence of leaders breaking off on parts of the fish. The tail, gill plates and finlets all exhibit evidence of contact with the leader.

    In fact you can count how many different places the line comes into contact with the fishes body. Mysterious breakoffs explained? Possibly.

    These photos are from Pametfisher and some suggestions regarding leader length and chaffing off on big fish.

    Fluorocarbon definitely helps. But I have become increasingly worried about 5' leaders. So I wont fish anything shorter than 10' these days. I start out with 25' and cut back. Yes I live on the edge and will catch multiple fish on BHP topshots.
     

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  4. Bill W

    Bill W tunaholic

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    There are line marks on most fish, yet no damage to the line. If the slime is disturbed by the line it will leave a trace. Here is a fish that got wrapped up, but on the deck. A lot of fish are going out on the first run will have the line across the body. Most likely all the body parts have made contact with the line. Heck, I saw Mark Moffet land a 180# on 30#, tail wrapped. (now that's cheating)

    Just saying, for me it works...

    P.S. on photo 2, is that the serve to the spectra I see...

    Boat transom on this boat is 8 feet across. How big is that fish? Spinning rod used, my guess they do not wind on the leader on the reel but come short of it for casting. My point is they in fact have a leader that is about 5 feet long...
     
  5. Normmclean

    Normmclean Newbie

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    chris
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    Well I am still young and dumb and big as an ox. as for the fish my longest was a 140# just under 4 minutes. as soon as I come tight after the bite I start jumping on the spool to stop the initial run. Technique my grandfather showed me that the old guys used to implement on swordfish that took a bait on the surface. palm the spool in 1 second intervels just enough to break his strait run and it usually stops the fish way short on the initial burst of energy. Then I wind till I die or the fish dies just let everyone know to throw me in the cooler and keep fishing If I go. Last trip buddy had a stop watch just to see what it was taking and my 187# came in just over 3 minutes. Dont know if he was lethargic or lazy but I tell you one thing the fish are hot as can be when they hit the deck. As stated before I am fully aware of the raw power the big boys can dish out I just havent been lucky enough to test myself against it yet I hope to get my arse handed to me in april. Till then lots of time on shoulder shrugs and cowbell weights to get ready. Thanks for all the input and friendly advice.
     
  6. Normmclean

    Normmclean Newbie

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    I was thinking Have a bunch of 5' fluoro rigs at the ready with swordfish ring crimped on to the rod side then tie on the hook end and swap leaders on every fish would make for quick change in a hot bite and I could cut out a few feet of spectra if there is wear above the fluoro. I will have plenty of 15 and 25' leaders at the ready as well.
     
  7. Bill W

    Bill W tunaholic

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    Works well even shorter. A few guys I respect a lot use that approach with the short leaders pre-made and hanging but they have about 50' of mono for shock. It's no problem for me to tie a hook on.
     
  8. JohnTFT

    JohnTFT Insomniac

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    The leader is 10'. That is the serve as you correctly point out. Its a PK pressure serve that doesnt use any glue or spectra over wrap at the insertion point. The insertion in the spectra is only 12" so they can get it on the spool of the spinner yet not lose so much inertia on the cast.

    I agree that on the initial run the leader has to come in contact with the body. Its after the initial run that might be where the chafe comes from.
    The body is not the issue for me soft tissue.

    The gills, tail and finlets are more of a concern as they are hard points.

    I am pretty sure I have fished on several occasions with 5 or 6' leader. No issues. On bigger fish, Bluefin in particular chafe off down the leader is not uncommon.

    Tail wrapped on 30#. I hope you had him buy you a lottery ticket!
     
  9. JohnTFT

    JohnTFT Insomniac

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    Bill, Fish was 59". Should put it between 130-145#.

    10' 100# Jinkai Mono. 60# JBH with a Stella 20k. 18# initial drag.

    The label L3 is weird. How did the leader get in between the pec and straight up and down on the fish. At the circles? Very weird.

    I think the L1 and L2 were after the fish settled in and those and L3 would be where chafe would occur.

    These photos were a result of a fish he caught prior. 69" 184-195 or so. Same 100# Jinkai 10' leader. What was interesting was it was chafed to half its diameter 8' down the leader when the fish broke off. Finlet chafe.

    Several years ago I lost an estimated 95-100" (540-600#) fish just as we threw the harpoon. 30' 220# fluorocarbon completely worn through about 7-8' from the hook. That distance put the chafe in the finlet area of the fish.

    Just something I am always worried about since that episode.
     
  10. JohnTFT

    JohnTFT Insomniac

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    Double post sorry.
     
  11. wahoodad

    wahoodad Yaddah X3

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    Although very small diameter and quite strong, spectra has horrible abrasion resistance. I don't want my spectra touching the fish, ever.

    Fluorocarbon on the other hand, very resistant to abrasion.
     
  12. Bill W

    Bill W tunaholic

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    Last trip...
    Had a nice one still hot get me on the sonar dome up on the bow. He was on the last circle, ouch! Also had a chew off on fluorocarbon at color on a cow. Felt the line go through the teeth as he moved around. Certainly hear some experienced anglers here...I would say at 8 feet it's about time to retire my 28 foot (new) leader. Served me well...
     
  13. Bill W

    Bill W tunaholic

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    The fish rolled catching the ventral fin and got caught under the pectoral fin. Appears to have the side on the deck facing the surface (curvature of the fish and mark on other side of pectoral fin). At point 1 and 2 that line looks like the fish is still on that side but is kicking out with the line traveling to the tail. Then it rolled out... Almost a tail wrap. With that 10 foot leader, no problem though....

    Were you there when this fish was caught John?
     
  14. JohnTFT

    JohnTFT Insomniac

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    Bill,

    I was not there. The pictures were part of a discussion on 360 very similar to the discussion we are having here.

    On my first long range trip I was so nervous about getting the bait away from the boat. I was using 5-6' fluorocarbon top shots. It worked very well as I found some difficulty at first getting the bait to swim. With some coaching from the Fleck Brothers, Ramirez and Waldman I was getting bit with increasing frequency.

    Those guys hate short topshots. Lack of shock absorption, chafe all the rest. I continued to use the short ones. I switched to a 25' one day and have been using that as my start point. I cut back to 10-12' or so and have had no issues.

    On the bigger models chafe through occurs with greater frequency. Sometimes going down to 150# fluro to get bit, lost many fish to chafe points several feet away from the hook.

    Its amazing how many different ways so many people do the same thing with in many cases the same results. Fish on the deck.

    Better mouse traps and opinions: give me fresh ideas on how I can change what I do or reaffirm what I am doing if that makes any sense.
     
  15. jusjac

    jusjac Newbie

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    jack
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    My last HB trip I lost three cows due to chafing above the hooks. Two of those on runs to the bow the 3rd at circle. I used 100 and 135 FC and the chafing was 8 or so inches from the hook. If the hook is on the opposite side of the fish, is the chafing just going to happen? Will bumping up to 150lb make a diff, or will backing off the drag help? Maybe that's why Andy tell us to use it. P.S. I did end up with 3 lucky me. Thanks jack
     
  16. Bill W

    Bill W tunaholic

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    First, what bait and type hook were you using? Chew offs seem to happen more with the bigger baits, as the fish is attempting to crush and kill the bait, like a skippie. The hook does not set in the corner of the mouth then.

    I recall a story. Vagabond skipper Mike Lackey watch one of his customers loose fish after fish using sardines with some very sharp hooks, (take a guess). He came down with his dikes and cut the tip of the hook off, pinned a bait on and let the line come tight like a circle hook on a fish and handed the rod to the guy. The hook was perfectly planted in the corner of the mouth.

    If you are chewed off, most likely the hook was not in the corner of the mouth. Super sharp hooks work great for wahoo, not so good for tuna... I like two VMC hooks for tuna. One is a 7360BN Dynamic, another 7262BN Tuna Tamer 5/0 and 6/0 for sardine and fish them like a circle hook...
     
  17. Fishybuzz

    Fishybuzz fishybuzz

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    Were you using j hooks or circle hooks?......if I were to guess it sounds like you were using j hooks if the fish is hooked deep will expose the line to the fishes teeth.....with circle hooks most of the time the fish is hooked in the corner of the mouth and cuts down the chances of chew offs.
     
  18. Bill W

    Bill W tunaholic

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    It's like we almost think alike, huh fishy...
     
  19. jusjac

    jusjac Newbie

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    jack
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    Sardines using the 5 super mutus or 8 or 9 demon all circles. No probs with the big Js with the big baits. All BW FC seemed worn down in 3 to 4 inch frayed section ( a chew off or body abrasion ). It seems to me that big tuna with a lipped hook circle on the opposite side of tension running shallow to the bow would stress a portion of the FC. I didn't seemed to have problems when the fish were deep. Going to HB in Jan. with L & M group and do not want to see the chafing of the line. How often are fish lost due to chafing? Knots, crimped hooks and nail serves worked great for me, just trying to figure the frigging fraying. P.S. Short tops of 25 to 12 feet works fine for me as well as squid skirts over a pl68s. thanks jack
     
  20. Bill W

    Bill W tunaholic

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    Beyond me... Fish have to swim where it's nose is pointed. As long as you do not have any slack in the line he has to swim with the line trailing it's mouth...Mystery. By the way, Capjimy is on the Jan 3rd trip and if you need wahoo bombs...

    Any possibility you hooked a shark or marlin, definite chafing there...
     

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