Seaman’s Manslaughter

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miaf

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Apr 14, 2013
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It seems like the only likely scenario for someone going to jail, would be if the captain never gave orders to the crew to do a roving watch. If he did and the crew member purposely and knowingly disobeyed those orders and abandoned his post and went to bed, that crew member may end up in jail. Other than those two scenarios, this will be a civil litigation case only. That’s just my opinion. The above is only speculation on my part and not intended to be interpreted as facts.
 

Done_Deal

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Sep 10, 2004
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It seems like the only likely scenario for someone going to jail, would be if the captain never gave orders to the crew to do a roving watch. If he did and the crew member purposely and knowingly disobeyed those orders and abandoned his post and went to bed, that crew member may end up in jail. Other than those two scenarios, this will be a civil litigation case only. That’s just my opinion. The above is only speculation on my part and not intended to be interpreted as facts.
I would think that the captain would be liable regardless of the crew disobeying orders for a roving watch. The captain is responsible for the actions of the crew with the possible exception of mutiny on the part of the crew.
 

miaf

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Apr 14, 2013
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I would think that the captain would be liable regardless of the crew disobeying orders for a roving watch. The captain is responsible for the actions of the crew with the possible exception of mutiny on the part of the crew.
Probably liable in civil court, but I doubt he would be charge criminally for the actions of an employee that went rogue on him and went against policy and procedures that were in place. Again, this is only speculation on my part and should not be considered factual.
 

SouthBayKiller

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Mar 27, 2003
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The past is now history recorded.

He and the other survivors are in a fight for their life's freedom.

What do you expect him to do, go mute?
Bend the knee to keyboard warriors if he would like his life spared!

I don’t blame him, by all accounts unless he’s the roving watch who was derelict of duty he is a victim here just like anyone else, he was just fortunate enough to survive. Doesn’t mean he had no losses here.
 

rexor_rn

Mangingisda
Sep 22, 2016
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Mananagat
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"CATTLE BOAT"
There is no question he was seriously injured.

He’s entitled to maintenance and cure. It’s the maritime version of workers comp.

Every worker is entitled to be compensated if they are injured on the job. It’s part of the cost of doing business. Calling a worker a rat for seeking maintenance and cure benefits isn’t right.

Maybe he’ll break ranks and tell the truth here.
Spot On!
 

makairaa

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May 1, 2005
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Philip Hunkins
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17 starcraft
There is no question he was seriously injured.

He’s entitled to maintenance and cure. It’s the maritime version of workers comp.

Every worker is entitled to be compensated if they are injured on the job. It’s part of the cost of doing business. Calling a worker a rat for seeking maintenance and cure benefits isn’t right.

Maybe he’ll break ranks and tell the truth here.
I never called him a rat, but calling him a whistleblower is an insult to actual whisteblowers. He is not doing this because he saw a wrong and is trying to fix it. Its all about money. Does he deserve workers comp? Sure he was injured on the job. It is sad that he probably does have to sue to get his benefits.
 
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sickcat

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It is what it is...this “compliant fire trap” boat did not fully trained this crew nor provide proper safety equipment according to the reports. Its also in violation of the roving watch requirement.

Hence, this Valiant Crew almost died and broke his ankle and Failed to help the 35 souls on board. Monetary compensation is Not even Enough.
What reports say the crew was not trained or the vessel failed to provide proper safety equipment? NTSB, USCG or FBI? If so please link them. If it is from he crew member suing then that info is seriously biased. If that crew was aware of safety issues did he report them to anyone? No? Then that info is worse than just biased - it is self serving and does not make any progress with improvements in safety.

I have seen/read at least a couple hours of media coverage and on the big majority of that coverage it is clear to me that those reporting do not have a clue what they are reporting about.

Of course failure to maintain watch is inexcusable. Any and all who allowed that to happen should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I don't know what the maximum sentence would be with the most serious charges possible, I would hazard a guess that even if the maximum penalty is given is will seem entirely inadequate given the loss of 34 lives.
 

sickcat

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Aug 5, 2003
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I would think that the captain would be liable regardless of the crew disobeying orders for a roving watch. The captain is responsible for the actions of the crew with the possible exception of mutiny on the part of the crew.
When/if a crew member disobeys the captains direct orders and the captain has no obvious way to be aware of it I don't think he/she would be held accountable.
 
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Larmo

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Jul 11, 2004
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I never called him a rat, but calling him a whistleblower is an insult to actual whisteblowers. He is not doing this because he saw a wrong and is trying to fix it. Its all about money. Does he deserve workers comp? Sure he was injured on the job. It is sad that he probably does have to sue to get his benefits.

I just used your quote to deal with a bunch of things others said.

Yes, he had to sue because first, that's how it works in maintenance and cure claims (there’s no workers compensation appeals board and no mandatory arbitration) and second, because he’s competing with all the passenger claims under the same policy limit.
 

Steve Francis

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Sep 11, 2006
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There is no question he was seriously injured.

He’s entitled to maintenance and cure. It’s the maritime version of workers comp.

Every worker is entitled to be compensated if they are injured on the job. It’s part of the cost of doing business. Calling a worker a rat for seeking maintenance and cure benefits isn’t right.

Maybe he’ll break ranks and tell the truth here.
Correct. The injured crewman is absolutely entitled to maintenance and cure from the owner. Typically, would an attorney expect a portion of those amounts? Aren't these actual amounts for medical treatments and usual/normal living costs until the injured has reached maximum recovery? Seems there would not be monies left for an attorney.
 
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MagBayCo

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Aug 31, 2019
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Mind Sweeper
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Your dreaming of you think the employee is going to see a dime without an attorney representing them.

Luv um, and hate um, but due to complexity of the legal system and the power of money, your F’d without the best representation possible.

I’ve been in life altering events where even without fault your F’d if your fighting the big guy with a pee shooter attorney.

3BC217D6-8898-4CC7-92C3-4AF4BB466AB5.jpeg
 

Steve Francis

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I would think that the captain would be liable regardless of the crew disobeying orders for a roving watch. The captain is responsible for the actions of the crew with the possible exception of mutiny on the part of the crew.
What you thought is not correct.
 

Larmo

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Jul 11, 2004
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Correct. The injured crewman is absolutely entitled to maintenance and cure from the owner. Typically, would an attorney expect a portion of those amounts? Aren't these actual amounts for medical treatments and usual/normal living costs until the injured has reached maximum recovery? Seems there would not be monies left for an attorney.

The value add by an attorney is the difference between what you would get filing your own lawsuit in Federal Court while up against the insurance company and it’s law firm, and what you would get with a good lawyer representing you.

I’m not saying it’s a great system but it’s the system in place.
 

PacificBlue

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Correct. The injured crewman is absolutely entitled to maintenance and cure from the owner. Typically, would an attorney expect a portion of those amounts? Aren't these actual amounts for medical treatments and usual/normal living costs until the injured has reached maximum recovery? Seems there would not be monies left for an attorney.
You are making the assumption that the injured crewman’s Compensation ends at medical treatments and normal living costs until recovery .

His total compensation doesn’t end there and therefore there is more money/compensation involved in the entire injury claim, which I am sure you already know.

The attorney compensation does not dip into the medical treatment and cost of living bucket.
 

Steve Francis

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The value add by an attorney is the difference between what you would get filing your own lawsuit in Federal Court while up against the insurance company and it’s law firm, and what you would get with a good lawyer representing you.

I’m not saying it’s a great system but it’s the system in place.
Thanks. Do all maintenance and cure claims filed go to court? Is each claim filed as a lawsuit? Fortunately, I have never had one and have never been involved in one.
 

Steve Francis

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You are making the assumption that the injured crewman’s Compensation ends at medical treatments and normal living costs until recovery .

His total compensation doesn’t end there and therefore there is more money/compensation involved in the entire injury claim, which I am sure you already know.

The attorney compensation does not dip into the medical treatment and cost of living bucket.
Typically would there 2 separate claims-cases? Maintenance/Cure and Personal Injury.
 
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af dreamer

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Apr 16, 2007
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OK,yesterday I went fishing on a overnight fishing trip.It was one of the old wood plank boats.The first thing I did was to go check out the bunk room.It had two sides to the bunks,both had a separate entrance that was from the main deck and not the galley,both rows led to a exit that had good stairs leading out to the deck.There was a smoke detector on each side that was located on the 3rd level of the bunks of a 4 level bunk room.NO 110 outlets in any of the bunks I could see.There were 2 large fire extinguishers at the deck entrance of the galley seating level with no smoke detectors visible in that area.The actual galley had a single seating and that area by the cooking area had a automatic suppression system.I had observed a cell phone being charged a couple times during the trip.There were 2 firestations clearly marked on the P&S side of the house a amidship with canvas hose along with 2 wash down hose on either sides of the house.Everything I could see was visible COI was seen except the 3rd required fire extinguisher which I assumed was in the wheel house.The capt gave a very detailed talk on safety when we we all in the galley area highlighting about going on deck when the boat was moving in the dark.Pointing out placement of life jackets and also the raft on top.I woke up in the middle of the night and there was a deck hand awake in the galley area.All in all I was impressed by the crew through out the day when dealing with the operation of the boat and the passengers.FWIW,Tom
 

Larmo

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OK,yesterday I went fishing on a overnight fishing trip.It was one of the old wood plank boats.The first thing I did was to go check out the bunk room.It had two sides to the bunks,both had a separate entrance that was from the main deck and not the galley,both rows led to a exit that had good stairs leading out to the deck.There was a smoke detector on each side that was located on the 3rd level of the bunks of a 4 level bunk room.NO 110 outlets in any of the bunks I could see.There were 2 large fire extinguishers at the deck entrance of the galley seating level with no smoke detectors visible in that area.The actual galley had a single seating and that area by the cooking area had a automatic suppression system.I had observed a cell phone being charged a couple times during the trip.There were 2 firestations clearly marked on the P&S side of the house a amidship with canvas hose along with 2 wash down hose on either sides of the house.Everything I could see was visible COI was seen except the 3rd required fire extinguisher which I assumed was in the wheel house.The capt gave a very detailed talk on safety when we we all in the galley area highlighting about going on deck when the boat was moving in the dark.Pointing out placement of life jackets and also the raft on top.I woke up in the middle of the night and there was a deck hand awake in the galley area.All in all I was impressed by the crew through out the day when dealing with the operation of the boat and the passengers.FWIW,Tom

That’s cool. What boat? Let’s spotlight ops that are models for safety.
 
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af dreamer

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Apr 16, 2007
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tom
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44 luhrs dreamer
The captain also stressed if needing to go to the head in the dark when the boat was moving to go to the port one that was more amidship instead of the 2 that are on the P&S sides of the boat forward in the house.All 3 are on the outside of the house on the deck level.Also to stay close to the house and away from the rail and if you can to have a friend know your going.
If I was in charge I believe any new rules would include that the some detectors had to be of the low deciable range so could be heard by all AND the ones with a flashing strobe in them for deaf or even people that might be sleeping with ear plugs which is done by many more than we think.Again FWIW,Tom
 

af dreamer

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Apr 16, 2007
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Actually that was one day and one crew.Would like not to say just because the boat is only as good as the crew that is on duty THAT watch.I just urge everyone that actually goes on our fleet of boats to LOOK and be aware.This deal has made me away of the low des smoke detectors and also a Fireboy alarm system that has probes that can be put into up the 12 diff areas on a boat.Im going to up grade my boat to these item.Tom
 

Steve Francis

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IMHO, the vast majority of the SoCal sportfishing fleet is operated like this. These may be mostly planked, wooden boats. Go back to 3 of the first 85 footers, the Liberty, the Freedom and the Grande (ex America). Each are a product of the early 60s and have safely carried many thousands of passengers. Similar vessels are numerous. Some changes will likely come from this Conception tragedy. I hope the owners of all of these great wooden boats will be able to afford those changes.
 

PacificBlue

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Still Looking
Typically would there 2 separate claims-cases? Maintenance/Cure and Personal Injury.
My assumption - if you have health insurance, your own health insurance company will subrogate against the liable party for that portion only. Insurance company vs insurance company. Without health insurance, you are a man alone on an island, would have to flow it down to the next step below.

Personal injury would require a separate claim in order to protect your own interest.

Difficult times for those under physical and emotional distress, hope they have family or friend support to guide them through the process.
 

mattsfishn

Well-Known "Member"
Nov 27, 2005
85
46
San Diego
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Matt
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Someday
Hey Tom. I do not see where you mentioned seeing an escape hatch. I'm honestly not sure if its required since you stated both stairwells led directly outside, not directly into the interior(galley/salon)of the boat. I don't know the regulations. Im curious if all boats require an escape hatch or only certain layouts would require one.
OK,yesterday I went fishing on a overnight fishing trip.It was one of the old wood plank boats.The first thing I did was to go check out the bunk room.It had two sides to the bunks,both had a separate entrance that was from the main deck and not the galley,both rows led to a exit that had good stairs leading out to the deck.There was a smoke detector on each side that was located on the 3rd level of the bunks of a 4 level bunk room.NO 110 outlets in any of the bunks I could see.There were 2 large fire extinguishers at the deck entrance of the galley seating level with no smoke detectors visible in that area.The actual galley had a single seating and that area by the cooking area had a automatic suppression system.I had observed a cell phone being charged a couple times during the trip.There were 2 firestations clearly marked on the P&S side of the house a amidship with canvas hose along with 2 wash down hose on either sides of the house.Everything I could see was visible COI was seen except the 3rd required fire extinguisher which I assumed was in the wheel house.The capt gave a very detailed talk on safety when we we all in the galley area highlighting about going on deck when the boat was moving in the dark.Pointing out placement of life jackets and also the raft on top.I woke up in the middle of the night and there was a deck hand awake in the galley area.All in all I was impressed by the crew through out the day when dealing with the operation of the boat and the passengers.FWIW,Tom
 

af dreamer

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Apr 16, 2007
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tom
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44 luhrs dreamer
they need a entrance and egress which was satisfied with the design of the boat,WAY better than a escape hatch.I did not look in the crews quarters which was forward of the galley and below the kitchen area.It would have the hatch im sure.Tom
 
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