Red diamond Rattlesnake.....

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NGSD1

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Great, five pages. Now Dave Hansen is going to post snake tips if he sees this many posts!
 
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bparker1225

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Jeff welcome. I appreciate reading and listening to various perspectives particularly from someone who is informed thoughtful and educated. It is difficult to make a decision when only listen to the chorus. I admire your stand, knowing that you will be ridiculed and called names. Keep up the good work!
 
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skipjackrobert

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Interesting read. We mostly get non venomous up here in south oc but do see some rattlers.
 
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skipjackrobert

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2 years ago I watched a road runner take a rattler next door. Pretty amazing to see..
 
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?? fisherman

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Jeff welcome. I appreciate reading and listening to various perspectives particularly from someone who is informed thoughtful and educated. It is difficult to make a decision when only listen to the chorus. I admire your stand, knowing that you will be ridiculed and called names. Keep up the good work!


I agree totally with this as well, and think Jeff is handling himself pretty damn good here.

My only bone is this whole thing is that I don't for a second believe that these Red Rattlers are anywhere even remotely close to being in trouble population wise.

I agree fully that humans are encroaching heavily on all kinds of different animals land, but I still feel there is plenty of available space where these snakes can call home, and are currently doing so in big numbers.

As far as their habitat and range being restricted. Lots can be said as well, for many other different species of fish, reptiles and other animals adapting over time and slowly evolving to where that range sometimes begins to change.

I grew up here in SoCal, and when I was a kid you would practically never see a crow, and yet now, and over time, they have broadened their range and made this area part of their home........ there are plenty of other similar stories as well.

Take a look at this past years fishing season (2014). Things had happened (and with a little regularity) that for the most part had never happened here before. Was this a fluke (more than likely), but wouldn't it be crazy if some certain species suddenly found a liking to our waters that had never done so before. It's not entirely out of question.

Jeff's the expert, not me, but I'm pretty sure those Red Rattlers eat rabbits and other vermin, which can be found in abundance in many many areas around here. I get the whole Sage Brush thing, but at the same time, I don't think it's all that unlikely or out of the question that these Red Rattlers could find a way to adjust to some other areas that are less Sagey (if ya know what I mean) LOL.

I'm not against what Jeff is saying at all, and me personally, I might actually find myself letting one move on if I ran across one........ and then again I might not, who knows, as to be honest I just don't know unless I suddenly find myself in that position??

The unknown fisherman:p:
 
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Jeff Lemm

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Thanks for the kind words guys. Re: the habitat thing, I can go on all day without swaying you - you seem set (even though you just called me the expert, lol). The anomalies we are seeing with certain species in the last couple of years are primarily based on climatic conditions (not ravens, they just know how to outcompete everything else and can do well in any habitat). Please let's not get on with the climate change argument, but it is happening and animals are responding - mostly poorly. Now I work for a non-profit research center, so I get nothing out of saying what is happening, be it good or bad. My research speaks for itself (basically, I make nothing up, just say what is happening). I have seen declining number sin many species in SD county for the last 20 years. I have also seen species doing better, mostly those that can handle being around people (much like the ravens, opossums, etc). All I know is that a large part of my job these days is education...your last sentence made me happy
 
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?? fisherman

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Thanks for the kind words guys. Re: the habitat thing, I can go on all day without swaying you - you seem set (even though you just called me the expert, lol). The anomalies we are seeing with certain species in the last couple of years are primarily based on climatic conditions (not ravens, they just know how to outcompete everything else and can do well in any habitat). Please let's not get on with the climate change argument, but it is happening and animals are responding - mostly poorly. Now I work for a non-profit research center, so I get nothing out of saying what is happening, be it good or bad. My research speaks for itself (basically, I make nothing up, just say what is happening). I have seen declining number sin many species in SD county for the last 20 years. I have also seen species doing better, mostly those that can handle being around people (much like the ravens, opossums, etc). All I know is that a large part of my job these days is education...your last sentence made me happy

Climate, habitat, call it what you wish, but it all boils down to some species making adjustments and changes........ some very gradual, and others, not so much. It's been happening since the very beginning of time. And although we do have both Ravens & Crows here in San Diego, it's the Crows that I was referring to, and which are the ones who have made the big move into the area in large numbers, mostly within the past 10-15 years.

As far as being set...... I'm never completely set and always try to be very open minded, although I am pretty well convinced that those Red Rattlers are doing very well here. You see the funny thing with so called experts is that even the best get it wrong on occasion. Sometimes (probably more often than not) these experts that devote their lives to studying a certain thing(s), will then often experience this profound new love for what it is they are studying, and it then will cloud their thinking, by making them overly protective of what it is they are studying.

Again, I am not condoning needless killing of Rattlers, and I think what you preach is good for all snakes. My take is just that the situation of these Red Rattlers isn't anywhere even close to being dire enough to consider them a true candidate to list as a protective species.

The unknown fisherman:p:
 
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gecsr1

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Damn Gary, alot of anger coming from you lately!? The guy is entitled to express his opinion, which he is doing rather polietly and keeping his cool. Ya gotta remember the guys profession and the way he makes a living is with reptiles, so to jump this guys shit and call him names just because he is trying to give his own take on killing them is kind of stooping low.

I don't agree at all with these Red Rattlesnakes needing to be on some protected list though, and it makes me wonder how they even came to this conclusion in thinking that they really need to be. Kind of reminds me (in a different way) of our current sea lion situation.

Nobody has to agree with his take, but the name calling and verbal assaults are exactly what nearly always makes a thread go to shit.


The guy is going out of his way to be cool, so try doing the same, because not everyone here has to always agree or share the same opinion.


The unknown fisherman:p:

Well not angry , but he really rubbed me wrong....I should not have called him an axxhat, but his first post on BD to me were a little on the combative side...It seems he Just came on the thread and was stirring the pot.. Opinions are one thing no one on this thread just eliminates these rattlers just for no reason. When they pose a thread and are there's the possibility of harm as in this situation then,, so be it,, eliminated it...
When they start searching for food around your house and property they continue to do so..They generally hunt/serach for food within a mile or so radius of their den..so they will come back..
 
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BiggestT

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Thanks for the kind words guys. Re: the habitat thing, I can go on all day without swaying you - you seem set (even though you just called me the expert, lol). The anomalies we are seeing with certain species in the last couple of years are primarily based on climatic conditions (not ravens, they just know how to outcompete everything else and can do well in any habitat). Please let's not get on with the climate change argument, but it is happening and animals are responding - mostly poorly. Now I work for a non-profit research center, so I get nothing out of saying what is happening, be it good or bad. My research speaks for itself (basically, I make nothing up, just say what is happening). I have seen declining number sin many species in SD county for the last 20 years. I have also seen species doing better, mostly those that can handle being around people (much like the ravens, opossums, etc). All I know is that a large part of my job these days is education...your last sentence made me happy

Jeff, enjoyed your contributions here, but the climate change comment is simply a gratuitous throw away here. Yes the climate is changing. Always has and always will. The issue here with the red diamond rattler is loss of habitat and that is due to encroachment of man. One only needs to look at population maps of California to see that the population is highly concentrated in the coastal areas, thus contributing to loss of habitat for the red diamond rattler.

To blame the observed reduction in populations of red rattlers on climate change or AGW theory is a complete throw away comment. There have been a number of studies on other species of animals and insects were the scientist errantly concluded that localized extinction was due to AGW or climate change. Even claims that species were migrating northward or upward in elevation to maintain ideal climate conditions. All of these were exposed in peer review to be hogwash.

One that I will cite is Dr.Camille Parmesan's 1996 butterfly paper title "Species and Climate Range". Parmesan ranks as the second most cited author in papers devoted to global warming and climate change. Her findings were garbage. Her studies were on the Edith Checkerspot Butterfly and her claims were that the observed localized extinctions were due to migrations upward in elevation and northward in response to warming temperatures. She stated "80% of the populations in Mexico and Southern California were extinct, even though their habitats looked perfectly fine." She claimed the first science study providing evidence of the predicted range shift (James Hansen predicted that species would shift their range upward and northward in response to warmer temperatures). For over a decade Parmesan perpetuated a myth of butterflies fleeing global warming. The problem with her study, no new populations were found north or upward from their historic range. Other problem is that they found recovering populations, something that defied AGW theory. The other problem is that "Edith Checkerspot butterflies have enhanced survival rates under scared temperatures, but only if drying soils do not cause their food plants to wilt prematurely. However, Cifornia's growing human population and changing landscape altered the traditional ecology of the checkerspot's food plants and pushed the plants to more rapidly drying soils."

So the localized extinction of the Edith Checkerspot butterfly had nothing to do with AGW and everything to do with humans development altering the landscape. You've said that loss of habitat has lead to a reduction in red diamond back rattlers and based on where they live and human population density, there is little doubt on that. But to throw in climate change as another forcing factor is simpy gratuitous. Yeah the climate is changinf and always has, but that 1 degree of temperature rise 100 years from now had no bearing on the death of a red diamondback at the end of Frank's shovel.
 
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bajaandy

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Jeff welcome. I appreciate reading and listening to various perspectives particularly from someone who is informed thoughtful and educated. It is difficult to make a decision when only listen to the chorus. I admire your stand, knowing that you will be ridiculed and called names. Keep up the good work![/QUO

Jeff, I appreciate your point of view and your candor in a decidedly anti-rattlesnake thread. Obviously you know how to handle yourself in a pit full of vipers. Good luck with your book. I seriously doubt that you're going to change the mind of any one of us that replied to this thread, but good on ya for trying.
 
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stairman

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If I can accidentally step on or grab a rattle snake and either lose tens of thousand of dollars for medical treatment or loss of work. if I can have loss of use of a body part for an extended period of time not to mention the severe pain.If it's "niche" in the environment can be off set by setting a few mouse and rat traps which are more effective then the 20 or so meals a rattler eats a year them they will continue to receive the welcome they get when ever I see them near my home.....viva the French revolution.
 
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wils

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If I can accidentally step on or grab a rattle snake and either lose tens of thousand of dollars for medical treatment or loss of work ,or have loss of use of a body part for an extended period of time not to mention the severe pain and it's "niche" in the environment can be off set by setting a few mouse and rat traps which are more effective then the 20 or so meals a rattler eats a year them they will continue to receive the welcome they get when ever I see them near my home.....viva the French revolution.

how does one accidentally grab a rattle snake?
 
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Jeff Lemm

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Wow, that's a lot of early risers. First off, let me say I have watched red diamond rattlers my entire life...along with a myriad of other species. I am not clouded in any way - they are disappearing, that is fact. Second, I knew the climate change part would get someone going and knew I didn't want to go there. If you read my comments, I wasn't saying that is the reason why snakes are disappearing (it is indeed habitat loss), just why some animals are responding (I actually meant the fish last year with the higher temps). Rising temps are changing things for some herps though, primarily those with Temperature-dependent sex determination (High temps in the egg equal males in many species - soon there will be only males=extinction).
Gary, didn't mean to rub you the wrong way - I apologize for doing so. Red diamonds do not have a den that they go to and from daily. In some areas they do overwinter in the same rocks, but not en masse like other species. They leave overwintering spots as soon as it gets warm and they won't be back until it gets cold in the fall. Their home range can be up to about 15 hectares for males, but usually a bit less.
baajandy, thanks for the comments - the book came out a while ago and has done very well (many herp lovers in San Diego/SoCa); I'm not expecting to change minds overnight, but I'm making people think and that is worth my time. Cheers boys, off to go find some snakes
 
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@-EZ

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Wow, that's a lot of early risers. First off, let me say I have watched red diamond rattlers my entire life...along with a myriad of other species. I am not clouded in any way - they are disappearing, that is fact. Second, I knew the climate change part would get someone going and knew I didn't want to go there. If you read my comments, I wasn't saying that is the reason why snakes are disappearing (it is indeed habitat loss), just why some animals are responding (I actually meant the fish last year with the higher temps). Rising temps are changing things for some herps though, primarily those with Temperature-dependent sex determination (High temps in the egg equal males in many species - soon there will be only males=extinction).
Gary, didn't mean to rub you the wrong way - I apologize for doing so. Red diamonds do not have a den that they go to and from daily. In some areas they do overwinter in the same rocks, but not en masse like other species. They leave overwintering spots as soon as it gets warm and they won't be back until it gets cold in the fall. Their home range can be up to about 15 hectares for males, but usually a bit less.
baajandy, thanks for the comments - the book came out a while ago and has done very well (many herp lovers in San Diego/SoCa); I'm not expecting to change minds overnight, but I'm making people think and that is worth my time. Cheers boys, off to go find some snakes


Damn, I didn't realize those critters move that far. I learned something today, thanks.
 
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gecsr1

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Wow, that's a lot of early risers. First off, let me say I have watched red diamond rattlers my entire life...along with a myriad of other species. I am not clouded in any way - they are disappearing, that is fact. Second, I knew the climate change part would get someone going and knew I didn't want to go there. If you read my comments, I wasn't saying that is the reason why snakes are disappearing (it is indeed habitat loss), just why some animals are responding (I actually meant the fish last year with the higher temps). Rising temps are changing things for some herps though, primarily those with Temperature-dependent sex determination (High temps in the egg equal males in many species - soon there will be only males=extinction).
Gary, didn't mean to rub you the wrong way - I apologize for doing so. Red diamonds do not have a den that they go to and from daily. In some areas they do overwinter in the same rocks, but not en masse like other species. They leave overwintering spots as soon as it gets warm and they won't be back until it gets cold in the fall. Their home range can be up to about 15 hectares for males, but usually a bit less.
baajandy, thanks for the comments - the book came out a while ago and has done very well (many herp lovers in San Diego/SoCa); I'm not expecting to change minds overnight, but I'm making people think and that is worth my time. Cheers boys, off to go find some snakes
Okay, and I apologize for the names, I live on 3.5 acres surrounded open fields, hills, rocky areas, and snakes dream habitat..and needles to say that all snakes have purpose, I may encounter both poisonous and non poisonous snakes to the tune of 20 to 30 a year if not more, I leave most alone , I have had to instances now where king snakes have climbed my steps and went after my Parrot that stays on the second story porch during the day, cage open , but lucky we seen them before they got to the bird, I simply relocated them, and never will I eliminate any non poisonous snakes, but with rattlers when they near my home and my pets and pose a threat they will be eliminated, I see many in my surrounding property and they are left alone. so my disposal rate compared to how many I see on my property is very nil.. 2 so far this year , one in my dogs fenced area and one next to my mail box..had my dog pinned on the back steps.
have at it... i will do what I feel is in the best interest my household and pets...
Thanks for the apology..
My day starts at 4:00 am and goes to 11:00 pm, yes early riser :)
 
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Jeff Lemm

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Hi Gary-
I live in Poway, probably not far from you (I hunt the hills often and know the best habitats). You can get ahold of me any time to deal with your rattlesnakes. Hell, I'd love to set up a monitoring system on private land - I could remove any unwanted snakes for you and get to play with s makes at the same time!
 
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stairman

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how does one accidentally grab a rattle snake?

I'll be glad to tell the story.

It was a very cold mid march morning. We had had 3 weeks of unseasonably warm weather previous to a cold front that left that morning clear but cold. My home is completely shaded by oaks and I had no heat on that night and it was very chilly in the house .So after the sun came up there is one nice sunny spot in the back yard that I took a cup of coffee out to sit in the sun and enjoy it's warmth. We had a lot of rain that year and with the previous warm weather the weeds were sprouting up fast.I live in the hills and my landscape is entirely native trees brush and weeds...I like it that way but the weeds need to be cleared and as I sat on the two beams left over from a deck build I looked at my feet and figure now was as good a time as any to pulls some of them. I reached down to the two foot tall weed and grabbed it at its base along with a 12inch rattler that thankfully was extremely lethargic from the 30 degree temps....yeah that will give you the willies!!.....if it had been ten degrees warmer that little bastard make have gotten me.
I had no insurance and if bitten could have wipe out my savings in two hours getting anti venom.
 
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gecsr1

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Hi Gary-
I live in Poway, probably not far from you (I hunt the hills often and know the best habitats). You can get ahold of me any time to deal with your rattlesnakes. Hell, I'd love to set up a monitoring system on private land - I could remove any unwanted snakes for you and get to play with s makes at the same time!
You hunt the hills for what ? if I may ask ...
 
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Jeff Lemm

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Yep, weeding is the one way I hear of most legitimate bites (by legitimate, I mean not trying to catch/kill) - usually Southern Pacific rattlers around here. Glad you didn't get hit
 
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gecsr1

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I'll be glad to tell the story.

It was a very cold mid march morning. We had had 3 weeks of unseasonably warm weather previous to a cold front that left that morning clear but cold. My home is completely shaded by oaks and I had no heat on that night and it was very chilly in the house .So after the sun came up there is one nice sunny spot in the back yard that I took a cup of coffee out to sit in the sun and enjoy it's warmth. We had a lot of rain that year and with the previous warm weather the weeds were sprouting up fast.I live in the hills and my landscape is entirely native trees brush and weeds...I like it that way but the weeds need to be cleared and as I sat on the two beams left over from a deck build I looked at my feet and figure now was as good a time as any to pulls some of them. I reached down to the two foot tall weed and grabbed it at its base along with a 12inch rattler that thankfully was extremely lethargic from the 30 degree temps....yeah that will give you the willies!!.....if it had been ten degrees warmer that little bastard make have gotten me.
I had no insurance and if bitten could have wipe out my savings in two hours getting anti venom.

I know that feeling , I have some grape fines on the bottom of a slope and the vines are draping over a piling wall, I was weeding and I saw what looked to be a dead branch , so I went to grab it as got had my hand ready to clinch I seen the rattles on the tail, talk about pissing your pants... stepped back and it was 4/5' rattles stretched out under the grape vine...
Lucky it was the tail end..
 
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stairman

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I know that feeling , I have some grape fines on the bottom of a slope and the vines are draping over a piling wall, I was weeding and I saw what looked to be a dead branch , so I went to grab it as got had my hand ready to clinch I seen the rattles on the tail, talk about pissing your pants... stepped back and it was 4/5' rattles stretched out under the grape vine...
Lucky it was the tail end..

never saw this one til it was writhing in my hand along with the weed stalk!
 
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