Rebuild begins

Discussion in 'Washington Fishing Reports' started by fishing fanatic, Feb 9, 2017.

  1. Chasin' Tail

    Chasin' Tail ~Jumpers!!~ <*)))><

    Location:
    Lacey WA
    Name:
    Mike
    Boat:
    17' Thor-Built Sled, 27' NorthRiver OS
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    It would be interesting to know the weight of your hull vs the newer OS's.

    As Tony G said above, I don't think there would be a need to have twin 250/300's for a boat your size.
    I'm at 27' w/o the bracket, 29' with it and went with 2x 200's mainly because they are the same weight as the 150's and have slightly more displacement for more torque. I'm incredibly happy with the motor choice as I get 2.2-2.4mpg in the ocean. Can hit 50mph with 17p Props, but chose to go down one pitch, so I have more low end power, cost me a couple mph. I feel as though I have plenty of power to spare. Most people running twin V6's are down in the 1.3-1.8mpg range depending on what boat they have. So fuel burn is generally significantly more running v6's. The price bump in motors from 2x 200's up to 2x 300's it pretty dramatic also.

    That said hull design plays a factor in HP needs. So your Almar w/o a reverse chine may not perform the same as the newer ones that do have the chine. If your deadrise is less, its probably a wash and should be pretty similar
     
  2. Chtucker

    Chtucker Lowe boat denter

    Location:
    Sunshine State, AKA NOT.. Kirkland, WA
    Name:
    Howard
    Boat:
    Double Trouble 28' Armstrong
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    I will disagree with the fuel mileage. An Armstrong was built with twin 200 I4s and then mine was built with 4.2L 250s. I get the same fuel mileage, lower RPMs to plane, and higher top speed. The price difference narrows when talking about DEC controls to DEC controls. A lot of people get hung up on the cable controlled motors being significantly less. I think the price difference is about $6k when compared apples to apples and about $10k comparing the mechanical to fly by wire.

    If I was doing it again, I would go with 300s, just because.

    If you are willing to shop different brands, I think the best hp per $ is to put twin 200hp Suzukis. Kurt has the 175s and they do great as well. I would bet you get twin 200 suzukis rigged and hung for $38k. Twin Yamaha 259s are going to be over $50k.
     
  3. fishing fanatic

    fishing fanatic Well-Known "Member"

    Location:
    Alger, WA
    Name:
    jason
    Boat:
    28’ almar sounder //16' lavro
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    All these opinions are things I've been pondering! So I'd be going with the fly by wire suzukis no matter what size I go with.... bang for buck I agree the inline 200s are probably it but the fact is if you're working smaller motors harder than letting the bigger ones do the same at a more relaxed rpm and workout fuel economy will normally balance out. Upfront cost is obviously a consideration but I had an osprey that was underpowered and will never put myself back in those shoes.
    As for the weight when I talked to north river(Almar) about my boat they felt it would be a touch heavier than the current 27'. They also agree that the lesser deadrise is a wash compared to the steeper deadrise but the flat step chine.
     
  4. South Sounder

    South Sounder Skipper

    Location:
    South Sound/ WA/ USA
    Name:
    Chris
    Boat:
    South Sounder
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    33ish NR
     
  5. Chasin' Tail

    Chasin' Tail ~Jumpers!!~ <*)))><

    Location:
    Lacey WA
    Name:
    Mike
    Boat:
    17' Thor-Built Sled, 27' NorthRiver OS
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    whats your economy with your 250's?
    Is your boat 9'6" or 8'6'?

    When I built my boat and got quotes, it was $22k for a single 300, or $16k for each of my 200's. both with DEC. I guess to some an extra $12k is chump change so why not slap twin 300's on the boat.

    My best economy is 3400-3600 rpm which is about 24-26/mph. Right in the sweet spot for the ocean. Motors are not working hard at that rpm imo.

    I don't know of anyone running twin 250's on NR that's in the 27' x 8'6" size, with the exception of John Keiser who runs 250 e-tecs. Jump up to the 29 x 9'6" and I'd agree you need the extra ponies of more hp, but your talking a much larger/heavier boat.
     
  6. Chtucker

    Chtucker Lowe boat denter

    Location:
    Sunshine State, AKA NOT.. Kirkland, WA
    Name:
    Howard
    Boat:
    Double Trouble 28' Armstrong
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    My boat is 9'6". The 200 powered boat doesn't get on plane till 4000 RPM

    I get 1.8mpg at 3400 RPM at 25mph. 5800 RPM is 51mph at 52gph

    You got a great deal on the 200s. I was quoted 18 each and 22k for the 250s.

    The big difference is weight. My boat is close to 11,000 and can push 12k with ice
     
  7. EJ Swanny

    EJ Swanny I've posted enough I should edit this section

    Location:
    Redondo/WA
    Name:
    Erik
    Boat:
    "Riley-J" 2006 21' Proline Tourney
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    Just curious......what was the price of the "Project Boat" and what is your budget for the "rebuild"??

    I'm sure you did your homework and a "cost/benefit" or "ROI" analysis. Hopefully you'll come out way ahead with your sweat equity....

    You can make this thing EXACTLY how you want it with no compromises....congrats and good-luck......

    Be safe all.....Swanny
     
  8. fishing fanatic

    fishing fanatic Well-Known "Member"

    Location:
    Alger, WA
    Name:
    jason
    Boat:
    28’ almar sounder //16' lavro
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    My dream was a custom new 28x 9'6". I test drove cold waters, have been on several north rivers and looked at broadwater boats. Bottom line that's a 300k deal or damn close with trailer and all. I got this boat and trailer for 47k. So I'm hoping to save a 100k and do most myself as I've done in the past. We shall see how it all pans out.
     
    EJ Swanny, Dash One and FINATIC 21 like this.
  9. fishing fanatic

    fishing fanatic Well-Known "Member"

    Location:
    Alger, WA
    Name:
    jason
    Boat:
    28’ almar sounder //16' lavro
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    New question for all of you! With the additions, changes and current paint failure I'm hoping to get the existing white all gone. In an ideal world I'd want to leave the boat all aluminum due to maintenance, cost and quite frankly not wanting scratched up paint.... maybe zolatone the cockpit. My question is does anyone know if I could get that paint removed and achieve a clean aluminum look like the hull or is that the impossible dream?
     
  10. Chtucker

    Chtucker Lowe boat denter

    Location:
    Sunshine State, AKA NOT.. Kirkland, WA
    Name:
    Howard
    Boat:
    Double Trouble 28' Armstrong
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    You can mechanically sand or blast. If you blast, it will get everywhere. I would do it as soon as you have the boat stripped.

    I think Bottom paint Bob could do it
     
    goatram likes this.
  11. fishing fanatic

    fishing fanatic Well-Known "Member"

    Location:
    Alger, WA
    Name:
    jason
    Boat:
    28’ almar sounder //16' lavro
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    But to blast I would need a special formula correct? Standard sand would take a load of aluminum with it?.
     
  12. Chasin' Tail

    Chasin' Tail ~Jumpers!!~ <*)))><

    Location:
    Lacey WA
    Name:
    Mike
    Boat:
    17' Thor-Built Sled, 27' NorthRiver OS
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    Now that's making more sense. Your boat is 3000# heavier than mine, you are probably more weight than the 29' x 9'6" NR's. So yeah, twin 200's would be slugs and underpowered on your hull.

    Apples and oranges to what he has in weight.

    I hear good things about the Suzuki's. Gear ratio is suited to swing bigger props and good torque. Going FBW is the way to go if you are going to run a 2nd station with controls for the mains. Yamaha is over-priced on theirs vs Suzuki on their FBW.
     
  13. fishing fanatic

    fishing fanatic Well-Known "Member"

    Location:
    Alger, WA
    Name:
    jason
    Boat:
    28’ almar sounder //16' lavro
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    Yeah, on the 9'6" beam I would only run 250s or 300s.... but this boat is only 8'9" and 27' . Still not saying I'm sold on only 200s but it's making more sense and Mike has numbers that look pretty promising. I think it's really an 8'6" beam to boot. The tape is reading 8'7" so I'd say8'6". Also having the full flotation step requires a hell of a lot less work because the motors don't have to lift to plane. Please keep the ideas and opinions coming because it truely only helps me move forward! It's really appreciated
     
  14. Chasin' Tail

    Chasin' Tail ~Jumpers!!~ <*)))><

    Location:
    Lacey WA
    Name:
    Mike
    Boat:
    17' Thor-Built Sled, 27' NorthRiver OS
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    I saw here on BD where someone either pressure washed some flaking paint, then hit it with a media blast I think. I'm leaning towards Armstrong thread, but I cant remember. But I think if yo can get all that paint off and address the pitting corrosion to get it out or sealed, then hou could do a wrap on areas you want to look nice and leave the bare alloy exposed to oxidize. If you want it to stay pretty you could apply a product called shark hide. it basically seales the metal away from air/salt reducing the chance of corrosion, OR do a 3M wrap and cover most of her battle scars, Id suggest a substance like Matson on the floor for traction. That stuff is grippy even when covered in fish goo.
     
  15. EJ Swanny

    EJ Swanny I've posted enough I should edit this section

    Location:
    Redondo/WA
    Name:
    Erik
    Boat:
    "Riley-J" 2006 21' Proline Tourney
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    WOW.....100k equals alotta bottles of fireball and coors light Great job.....very jealous.... Not that I've ever spent that much of my own money, but I've spent billions of the governments money....one thing I would caution you on (and where our taxes go) is scope creep. Whether it be a custom car, a house, a boat..a F-35.........etc..try to lock down a configuration and stick with it.....changes cause other changes that cause other changes and that equals $$$$$$$$$$$...sounds like you know your stuff......do the research up front and save $$$ on the back-end....

    Keep the pics coming........
     
    goatram likes this.
  16. goatram

    goatram Notable Member Gate Keeper to the Great Northwest

    Location:
    Stanwood, WA
    Name:
    grrrrrrrr
    Boat:
    33' RBW MISS ELIZA
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    Strip the boat and take it to Bob to Blast it. @Omakase
     
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  17. Chtucker

    Chtucker Lowe boat denter

    Location:
    Sunshine State, AKA NOT.. Kirkland, WA
    Name:
    Howard
    Boat:
    Double Trouble 28' Armstrong
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    Bob would soda blast it, Very aluminum safe
     
  18. fishing fanatic

    fishing fanatic Well-Known "Member"

    Location:
    Alger, WA
    Name:
    jason
    Boat:
    28’ almar sounder //16' lavro
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    Could anyone give me a phone number for bob? Sounds like he knows the deal well!
     
  19. Vek

    Vek Newbie

    Location:
    Blaine
    Name:
    Jerry
    Boat:
    28' Almar
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    Data point - I put a F350 Yamaha on a 2001 28' hull with walkaround cabin. Zero problems cruising in big seas with full tanks and lots of folks. I have two different 15P props - the LFS4 is pitched a bit shorter than the Yamaha SWS XL. I use the 4-blade offshore and the SWS XL in the sound. The 4-blade basically cannot ventilate at normal trim ranges in big seas. The SWS will ventilate if trimmed up near level, but cruises more efficiently in small water. With some of the power numbers being thrown around here, I guess I must be in the minority, but if I can cruise at 24 knots loaded heavy with motor RPMs less than 4400 or so, I'm a happy camper. I get 25 knots with the LFS4 at 4400 rpm, and more like 27 or 28 knots depending on load at 4400 rpm with the SWS XL.

    I replaced the Volvo diesel in my rig with a second 55 gallon fuel tank, for 200 gallons total capacity. That was a good move. The main original tank was billed to me as 120 gallons, but when emptied and filled was 145.

    In my opinion, displacement is a far better indicator of outboard performance than horsepower. Merc's 150s are 3.0 liters apiece. I'm confident that those twinned to 6.0 liters would hold speed in big seas as well as my 5.3 liters (and 50 extra horsepower) do. Somewhere on the web is a plot of Honda's BF135 and BF150 horsepower - the power numbers plot the same until 4400 rpm where the vtec on the 150 kicks in. The engine displacements being identical is responsible for matching power curves until valve timing trickery takes over at high rpms. I would predict that the same is true for the 4.2L yamahas, and the various inline 4s in the 150-200hp range. If you take twin 225 yamahas and 300 yamahas and prop them to make WOT revs (say 17 on the 225s and 19 on the 300s), you will probably cruise slower, but perform at least as well in big seas and moderate rpms; perhaps better because of shorter pitch.

    All of this to say - I wouldn't buy 300s if 225s of the same displacement worked on my hull, and by "worked" I mean cruising comfortably at 24 knots and 4200 rpm or less.
     
  20. Spokaloo

    Spokaloo I've posted enough I should edit this section

    Location:
    Spokane, Wa
    Name:
    Eric
    Boat:
    I build my own
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    Well, aside from your engine question (Two of my neighbors have Zukes, one with an idle choke failure, one with an undiagnosable full throttle shutdown problem), I'd weigh in on the hull modifications.

    Make 110% absolutely sure that you've got the hull plating perfectly straight, fair, and linear from the old plating to the end of the new platform. Have seen first hand how badly an extension can go, performance wise.

    What is your motive to extend? The designer penned your hull to be a certain length, and it has fair curves, particular moments of lift, balance, etc that are designed to be that way. Hanging a bracket without hull plating can be less risky.

    Another consideration to throw your way is to add either an extrusion or weld on a flange of some sort to create 3/4 length spray rails. These mimic the chine flats you see on other hulls, generating additional lift, drier running, better attitude and attack angles, etc. If you are stripping the hull, these aren't difficult to add.

    I'd lean toward media blasting rather than sanding. Sanding the hull is difficult to do without leaning out the material you're sanding unless you go fine grit. That takes FOREVER.

    Another good performance consideration, since engines are so key to your concerns, is finding ways to get some weight out of that boat. They were notoriously heavy, and you may find ways to reduce weight that don't sacrifice any structural needs of the boat. They have piggish cabins, heavy attachments, and some of the substructure is overdone. There's ways to cut weight and create storage that could be pretty handy.

    Best of luck on the project!

    E
     
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