Pacifica runs aground in Mission Beach

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wils

lazy-ass well known "member"
May 31, 2003
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If there was a big swell, would the crew and passengers all have been able to sleep so soundly?
As I recall, running uphill is "kinda bumpy" and very difficult to sleep through. So lets blame Mother Nature for the lake-like conditions that allowed everyone onboard to get a good nights sleep. :D.
 

Larmo

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Jul 11, 2004
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So in your mind the entire fleet of san diego ...or maybe so cal sport fishers need to return to port ,be grounded until a review is complete and new training takes place?

lol and you wonder why lawyers that deal with personal injury cases have the reputation they do....I have an idea....the next time a layer makes a mistake how about you all go back to law school and the rest of us enjoy our lives with out your blather.
Alternately you should approach a mirror ,purse your lips and hum then strum your lips with a finger....youll sound far more useful.

I’m not saying that. I’m saying the Navy understands systems over goals. Blame the individual who fell asleep or the boat that hired him then call it a day and you miss the plot.

I don’t understand why they tolerate this level of risk. They have the ability to create the systems necessary to prevent a negligent individual from being able to threaten the entire business. It is so easy to fix. There is no reason for a business to accept the risk of a man falling asleep and killing customers. Firing the man or the boat and calling it good is accepting that risk because relying on individuals not to fall asleep rather than systems to make it impossible is the risk.

Had there been a New Zealand swell running, and the boat was destroyed on the beach, people would have drowned and the business would be threatened. Just 30 days of operations before someone was killed due to the same risk. A year before that all the passengers were in life boats due to the same risk. Maybe another accident wouldn’t be cataclysmic but the brand would have been permanently damaged. Regulators may have stepped in.

Or the insurance companies’ systems to protect their capital would cause them to stop insuring these boats. They are one risk advice memo away from that scenario.

If it was my net worth tied up in this business, I wouldn’t accept the risk that one man working for one independent contractor can threaten my entire business. I would use three accidents in three seasons all from the same cause, with one death and dozens of injuries, as a call to action if for no other reason than to protect my business.
 
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stairman

......
May 16, 2009
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doug
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yak and lowe duck hunting skiff but they identify as sportfishing crusiers
I’m not saying that. I’m saying systems over goals. Blame the individual who fell asleep or the boat and call it a day and you miss the plot.
ah I get it ...nothing you said or typed five minutes ago matters....got ya...now I really understand what you are getting at...have you thought of a career in politics?
There are systems and goals inmind...get back to the dock with out hitting anyone or running aground...its a system that predates even lawyers
 

Larmo

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Jul 11, 2004
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hmmm.....
Frank is financially responsible for USCG-certified Captain failures because:
A) He is the Godfather
B) He holds the "paper" on many boats
C) He holds the "paper" on the leases
or
D) He has the deepest pockets for the lawyers to go after
The deep pocket is the insurance company. The best scenario for lawyers is insured boats crash every year. I’m trying to stop that from happening again.
 

5150

I've posted enough I should edit this section
Aug 4, 2004
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JB
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Matson Inc.
Enthusiasm does not equate to aptitude. These events were too close together. He’s not a kid. He’s a grown man with offspring. There should not be another chance for him to put peoples lives in jeopardy . Wondering what Mr. Neff might think...
ABSOLUTLY CORRECT!!!! This guy is a train wreck. Gotta to be out of your mind or on a suicide mission to get near a boat he's on..
 
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Larmo

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The worst possible scenario is for the underwriters to learn from their lawyers there was a third accident the next day after they paid off the second accident.

They’re smart enough to know firing the captain isn’t going to de-risk this business enough to insure it.
 
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Yellowtail Dan

I've posted enough I should edit this section
Apr 10, 2006
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I think it’s funny a Lawyer coming on here telling everyone how Frank should run his business. I think Frank has done very well on his own and people don’t know half off the story for all of the folks he’s helped. The more I read the more I think someone is trying to re-direct the issue and turn it on the guy with hard earned money.

Ultimately this will all play out in a real court with real lawyers where all of the FACTS will be revealed and Andrew will have to face the music.

Using the Navy as a reference point as to what should be done to “fix” the San Diego Sport fishing fleet is apples to oranges.
 

Larmo

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I think it’s funny a Lawyer coming on here telling everyone how Frank should run his business. I think Frank has done very well on his own and people don’t know half off the story for all of the folks he’s helped. The more I read the more I think someone is trying to re-direct the issue and turn it on the guy with hard earned money.

Ultimately this will all play out in a real court with real lawyers where all of the FACTS will be revealed and Andrew will have to face the music.

Using the Navy as a reference point as to what should be done to “fix” the San Diego Sport fishing fleet is apples to oranges.
If I didn’t respect Frank I wouldn’t bother trying to fix this. It’s working great for lawyers the way it is.
 

Miss Fitz

Call me Captain
Mar 4, 2013
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I do find it funny that the group that bitches most about the younger, lazy, entitled generation is the generation that raised them.
Huh? I made reference to and bitched about the US litigious CULTURE, not which generation is currently endeavoring in this behavior.... and I'm pretty sure that the plaintiffs from the 70's-80's flagship cases that started this mess were before my time. My generation didn't raise them.

But since we are now both presuming things, I am going to guess you are from the Millennial generation? Please don't be upset and try to sue me if I am in error :)
 
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Ctony.clark

I've posted enough I should edit this section
Jun 14, 2012
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Tony Clark
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Freedom Boat Club
You’re right. There were two collisions and a grounding (sound familiar?).

Do you remember how the Navy responded to those incidents? They returned non-essential ships to port and did a Comprehensive Review so they could make systemic corrections. They refused to just blame it on a watchstander or a ship, though there were obviously good reasons to hold them culpable. They instead looked at the entire system from training to leadership so they were less vulnerable to negligence by individuals.

Systems beat goals.

What systems are in use in this fleet to minimize the risk of individual negligence? With the right systems it should literally be impossible for the person assigned the watch to fall asleep and endanger the passengers let alone destroy the business. It isn’t difficult to construct those systems using tools that are already on the boats. It just requires an attitude combined with excellent leadership and management skills.

Frank knows how to do it.

visited your website yesterday, clearly you are a solid and well informed reference on these topics, as well as an avid Angler.
‘Safety Stand downs” are common in every Industry I have ever worked for. I work on 25-40K watt lasers, when accidents happen, and when either Equipment is damaged or people are injured, we do “stand down” and go over the Process, and what failed, be it an Engineering or Administrative Control, address it, amend the Process and move forward. We find it is a Process Step that failed, and an “Administrative Control” in this case would apply to a Roving Patrol.
Needless to say, and as you said, the big boating club...THE US NAVY implements Safety Stand downs as well. In my opinion you don’t have an axe to grind, just some common sense applied, that being said, I bet the phone lines of SOME of these operations were lit up.
There are certain boats I sleep solid on.
 
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Larmo

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visited your website yesterday, clearly you are a solid and well informed reference on these topics, as well as an avid Angler.
‘Safety Stand downs” are common in every Industry I have ever worked for. I work on 25-40K watt lasers, when accidents happen, and when either Equipment is damaged or people are injured, we do “stand down” and go over the Process, and what failed, be it an Engineering or Administrative Control, address it, amend the Process and move forward. We find it is a Process Step that failed, and an “Administrative Control” in this case would apply to a Roving Patrol.
Needless to say, and as you said, the big boating club...THE US NAVY implements Safety Stand downs as well. In my opinion you don’t have an axe to grind, just some common sense applied, that being said, I bet the phone lines of SOME of these operations were lit up.
There are certain boats I sleep solid on.
For most of my career I was the guy companies called in to sort out a crisis and get control of all the lawyers (including their own).

This could be fixed tomorrow am:

1. All boats to install 2way AIS and remove kill switches ($1000)

2. Deckhand in the wheelhouse with the second while running at night. (Duty re-assignment, cost $0)

3. Mandatory use of all existing collision avoidance systems in radar, GPS Plotter and sounder while running @ night. If those systems don’t include a watch alarm, add one. (Cost $0 - $150)

4. Review of alcohol and drug policies and testing protocols (Offseason task, cost $0)
 
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Ctony.clark

I've posted enough I should edit this section
Jun 14, 2012
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556
Carlsbad, Ca, u.s.a.
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Tony Clark
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Freedom Boat Club
For most of my career I was the guy companies called in to sort out a crisis and get control of all the lawyers (including their own).

This could be fixed tomorrow am:

1. All boats to install 2way AIS and remove kill switches ($1000)

2. Deckhand in the wheelhouse with the second while running at night. (Duty re-assignment, cost $0)

3. Mandatory use of all existing collision avoidance systems in radar, GPS Plotter and sounder while running @ night. (Cost $0)

4. Review of alcohol and drug policies and testing protocols (Offseason task, cost $0)
Two are Engineering controls, two are Administrative controls, easy to insert #1 and #3 the Engineering Controls. Two and four are where “the rubber meets the road.”
 
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Larmo

Strip it. Mend it. Hit it!
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If Frank had some good business school advice he could create a new profit center while solving his problem.

The problem Frank has is letting his liability lawyers decide how best to structure the business. It’s like asking a framer how to fix a plumbing leak, “Hand me that hammer.”

The lawyer told him to use independent contractors and a light touch to insulate the landings from liability.

1. It won’t work once the number of accidents piles up.

2. It leaves him vulnerable to the kinds of underfunded and under-educated decision makers that has Andy rise to leadership before he’s ready and take the whole operation down. The lawyers say, “See, limited liability,” while Frank looks around and says, “These accidents are killing us!”

He would be better off taking control of the risk variables himself with his superior budget and expertise.

The way it’s done in an operation like this is to create a new LLC that provides management services to the fleet of ICs. Charge them a %. Use it to help the ICs reduce their costs by pooling resources to create better economies of scale. Provide Accounting, HR, IT, Legal, RIsk Management Consulting and Insurance. Bring in competent people to run it, preferably from fleet managers for oil companies and former Navy Officers - the kinds of people the ICs can’t afford to hire on their own because they have no economies of scale. If you do it well, the fleet will lower its costs, you will create a new profit center (and one that’s a helluva lot more important than better fish cleaning), and you will take control of your business risk without bringing it into the parent’s liability fortress.

You won’t hear solutions like this from lawyers, unless they also were entrepreneurs.
 

Capt Devo

Fish Hard
Mar 14, 2010
731
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Devo
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Trophy
If Frank had some good business school advice he could create a new profit center while solving his problem.

The problem Frank has is letting his liability lawyers decide how best to structure the business. It’s like asking a framer how to fix a plumbing leak, “Hand me that hammer.”

The lawyer told him to use independent contractors and a light touch to insulate the landings from liability.

1. It won’t work once the number of accidents piles up.

2. It leaves him vulnerable to the kinds of underfunded and under-educated decision makers that has Andy rise to leadership before he’s ready and take the whole operation down. The lawyers say, “See, limited liability,” while Frank looks around and says, “These accidents are killing us!”

He would be better off taking control of the risk variables himself with his superior budget and expertise.

The way it’s done in an operation like this is to create a new LLC that provides management services to the fleet of ICs. Charge them a %. Use it to help the ICs reduce their costs by pooling resources to create better economies of scale. Provide Accounting, HR, IT, Legal, RIsk Management Consulting and Insurance. Bring in competent people to run it, preferably from fleet managers for oil companies and former Navy Officers - the kinds of people the ICs can’t afford to hire on their own because they have no economies of scale. If you do it well, the fleet will lower its costs, you will create a new profit center (and one that’s a helluva lot more important than better fish cleaning), and you will take control of your business risk without bringing it into the parent’s liability fortress.

You won’t hear solutions like this from lawyers, unless they also were entrepreneurs.
Your rambling diatribes are mostly merit-less and make it more than clear that the Auto Pilot was at fault as it was driving when the M/V Pacifica grounded on the beach near the Harbor on the morning of June 29 2019.

Please stop building your tortured and pathetically transparent liability case against Capt. Frank an industry hero and not to old to kick your sorry ass. Instead go after and sue the real villain Capt. Auto Pilot maybe this will keep you busy somewhere else and not here.
 
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Yellowtail Dan

I've posted enough I should edit this section
Apr 10, 2006
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Excel, American Angler
If Frank had some good business school advice he could create a new profit center while solving his problem.

The problem Frank has is letting his liability lawyers decide how best to structure the business. It’s like asking a framer how to fix a plumbing leak, “Hand me that hammer.”

The lawyer told him to use independent contractors and a light touch to insulate the landings from liability.

1. It won’t work once the number of accidents piles up.

2. It leaves him vulnerable to the kinds of underfunded and under-educated decision makers that has Andy rise to leadership before he’s ready and take the whole operation down. The lawyers say, “See, limited liability,” while Frank looks around and says, “These accidents are killing us!”

He would be better off taking control of the risk variables himself with his superior budget and expertise.

The way it’s done in an operation like this is to create a new LLC that provides management services to the fleet of ICs. Charge them a %. Use it to help the ICs reduce their costs by pooling resources to create better economies of scale. Provide Accounting, HR, IT, Legal, RIsk Management Consulting and Insurance. Bring in competent people to run it, preferably from fleet managers for oil companies and former Navy Officers - the kinds of people the ICs can’t afford to hire on their own because they have no economies of scale. If you do it well, the fleet will lower its costs, you will create a new profit center (and one that’s a helluva lot more important than better fish cleaning), and you will take control of your business risk without bringing it into the parent’s liability fortress.

You won’t hear solutions like this from lawyers, unless they also were entrepreneurs.

Now you’re going to tell Frank what he should be doing? You with your vast business acumen? Wow.

The more you type the bigger the idiot you come across as. Maybe you should post your business info so everyone can see who not to choose to represent them
 
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Blackfish

I've posted enough I should edit this section
Sep 20, 2005
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toy
If I was onboard this trip, I would have looked at it as an adventure with a wild ending, and being that there were no injuries or personal damage that was incurred by the passengers, the only thing I would be looking for in reparation is my gear and catch returned, a free ride to my truck. If my catch was spoiled, then a partial refund would be in order. I still got to fish the entire trip, and I made to the beach unscathed, with a great story to tell my kids. ha

Any other legal issues would be between the proper authorities, the captain and crew.
 

gnehekul

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Mar 23, 2012
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Your rambling diatribes are mostly merit-less and make it more than clear that the Auto Pilot was at fault as it was driving when the M/V Pacifica grounded on the beach near the Harbor on the morning of June 29 2019.

Please stop building your tortured and pathetically transparent liability case against Capt. Frank an industry hero and not to old to kick your sorry ass. Instead go after and sue the real villain Capt. Auto Pilot maybe this will keep you busy somewhere else and not here.
Wait your blaming the auto pilot?
 
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