Outboard warranty claim denied

bouttime

On the grounds,where are you??
Oct 18, 2007
434
78
San Diego
Name
Tim
Boat Name
Royal Star since 1997,Just a loyal customer.2120Parker Bout time
That’s where we’re heading, deep dive and get some specs
 
Upvote 0

Slater

cuss on Monday,pray on Sunday,dream about one day
Jun 1, 2006
4,512
1,222
50
Lakeside
Name
Rob
Boat Name
sold! / cattle boat
Have someone in the automotive repair business, especially a dealer, help write up the warranty ticket. They are experts in the power of the pen for warranty claim. I do not think the people in the marine industry do not have the years of experience doing this type of paperwork to get warranty repairs. PM Slater here on BD. He might be able to help you a little bit as he is in the auto repair industry at a dealership. It is worth a shot.
Thanks Dwayne...:D
From the brief reading further testing should have been done before the head was removed & im not seeing any indication of it...
Yes the cylinder wall scoring doesnt look great but can see that small amount of scoring being the smoking gun for what you stated failed leakdown.
Was there a compression test done? wet & dry test results???
What were the leakdown test failure numbers?
When a leakdown is done, they further isolate the loss to where air loss is going which would tell you the failure point.
The valves would leak into the intake or exhaust system & if leaking past rings you would hear the air in the crankcase / oil pan....
Were all these tests done prior to teardown????
Lots remains to be un-answered & theres good techs & bad...
All 6 cylinders could be equally scored...
the pistons are still in the block & piston & piston bore were not measured & could be out of spec or out of round.
This could be a case of barking up the wrong tree & its all related to the cam timing error code...
If compression was low & leakdown infact showed indication of blowing past the rings that one thing...
but im guessing not from the scratches im seeing on the cylinder walls, bad but wouldnt cause compression loss....
Where do you stand with suzuki warranty, out on time?? how far out? maybe they can send one of there field service engineers out & shed some light on it?
third partys suck...
lots of questions to ask them too would they cover any aspect of a block or piston failure? could be an out of spec block from factory...
all speculation as im havent done any of the testing & still scratching my head on what the tech actually found wanting to tear it down. did he do any of these other tests I mentioned prior to teardown, results.....
Like you stated, im not seeing a failure either, tech prematurely tore things apart from the little info you provided, maybe you have all those answers & tests were actually done but not posted.
Sometimes doing warranty work things are abit more flexable but that teardown hasnt showed third party much...indicating you need an engine...

Im rambling at this point cuz I have only 1% of the story & zero diagnostic findings / actual numbers....
Dont think this engine would go into failsafe mode if it had low compression...
That throws-up red flags for me, cart before the horse...
Did they solvent test the valves, check for leakage now that its torn down, shot some compressed air in the exhaust & intake ports & see if you have air bubbles?

Im by no means claiming I know everything & im NOT an outboard tech. I would further investigate variable valve timing issues were discovered, limp mode initiated, before all that teardown. Been doing engine work & diagnostics related to all aspects of it including electronic systems associated with it for 35 years though....

arent zukes 5 year warranty>?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AllzGood

Baja Bound
Jul 1, 2020
142
90
36
Ventura
Name
Dustin
Boat Name
Parker 2320 Extended Cabin
Thanks Dwayne...:D
From the brief reading further testing should have been done before the head was removed & im not seeing any indication of it...
Yes the cylinder wall scoring doesnt look great but can see that small amount of scoring being the smoking gun for what you stated failed leakdown.
Was there a compression test done? wet & dry test results???
What were the leakdown test failure numbers?
When a leakdown is done, they further isolate the loss to where air loss is going which would tell you the failure point.
The valves would leak into the intake or exhaust system & if leaking past rings you would hear the air in the crankcase / oil pan....
Were all these tests done prior to teardown????
Lots remains to be un-answered & theres good techs & bad...
All 6 cylinders could be equally scored...
the pistons are still in the block & piston & piston bore were not measured & could be out of spec or out of round.
This could be a case of barking up the wrong tree & its all related to the cam timing error code...
If compression was low & leakdown infact showed indication of blowing past the rings that one thing...
but im guessing not from the scratches im seeing on the cylinder walls, bad but wouldnt cause compression loss....
Where do you stand with suzuki warranty, out on time?? how far out? maybe they can send one of there field service engineers out & shed some light on it?
third partys suck...
lots of questions to ask them too would they cover any aspect of a block or piston failure? could be an out of spec block from factory...
all speculation as im havent done any of the testing & still scratching my head on what the tech actually found wanting to tear it down. did he do any of these other tests I mentioned prior to teardown, results.....
Like you stated, im not seeing a failure either, tech prematurely tore things apart from the little info you provided, maybe you have all those answers & tests were actually done but not posted.
Sometimes doing warranty work things are abit more flexable but that teardown hasnt showed third party much...indicating you need an engine...

Im rambling at this point cuz I have only 1% of the story & zero diagnostic findings / actual numbers....
Dont think this engine would go into failsafe mode if it had low compression...
That throws-up red flags for me, cart before the horse...
Did they solvent test the valves, check for leakage now that its torn down, shot some compressed air in the exhaust & intake ports & see if you have air bubbles?

Im by no means claiming I know everything & im NOT an outboard tech. I would further investigate variable valve timing issues were discovered, limp mode initiated, before all that teardown. Been doing engine work & diagnostics related to all aspects of it including electronic systems associated with it for 35 years though....

arent zukes 5 year warranty>?

Thanks for your response Slater, my Suzuki shop worked closely with Suzuki remotely for almost a month before Suzuki sent out an engineer/tech to aid in the repair. I was told they were able to eliminate fuel supply and electrical as possible causes. They were also able to replicate the problem in a tank and on the water but could not successfully identify why just of out range VVT with no codes. Once here the tech discovered the failed leak down and was satisfied that could be the cause. Where was it leaking into? Not sure, I need to ask. He stated it could be affecting the ECM which in turn was affecting the VVT. Sounded reasonable to me. He also stated for the first time the Suzuki warranty was expired but an extended protection plan with cornerstone was active. The Suzuki Tech/Engineer then discontinued aid. This is where I believe things got off track.

Did tunnel vision occur after this? I’m not sure yet. I have lots of questions for my shop to find that out. Unfortunately, I was pretty hands off throughout the process but received periodic updates when asked. They finally scoped the cylinders and found the mentioned scoring. What else did they do? I don’t know exactly but I now need to know. I do know I was told the compression test was normal (wet/dry not sure) and leak down was failed in cylinders 4 and 6 w/ scoring found in those cylinders. Sounded like they identified the problem to me.

Cornerstone was then contacted and they required a breakdown of the motor to display the problem. My shop was not happy about this and said it was excessive, cornerstone said no breakdown no warranty coverage.

Once broken down cornerstone sent out a private inspector who barely looked at the motor and said the breakdown was unnecessary. “A scope would have been adequate”. He took a few photos and left in less than 5 minutes. The shop owner had to walk away he was so mad.

It seems to me the shop put all their eggs in the warranty basket and now that it’s denied the entire plan has gone to shit.

Please advise! The shop is very well respected and does quality work but maybe they are in over their heads on this one? If you give me a list of important diagnostics I can ask if they were done to get to the bottom of this.

Btw all 3 exposed cylinders displayed the same “scoring”. Not sure of the other 3 as they were never opened up.

Thanks in advance

B5F3DB14-8AE2-4A47-9016-B3CFF6041431.jpeg
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Slater

cuss on Monday,pray on Sunday,dream about one day
Jun 1, 2006
4,512
1,222
50
Lakeside
Name
Rob
Boat Name
sold! / cattle boat
thats my concern too. is the the other 3 cylinders may have some scoring also & deemed normal scoring even though to the untrained eye seems bad...
If leakdown failed thats generally associated with low compression, so the compression loss was either valves or past the piston...
Some guys shoot from the hip, the vvt system checks out, we boroscoped the cylinders & that doesnt look good so must be that & they never actually do manual comp test, leakdown, etc....
my guess is compression was good, ran smooth at idle, right?
You can also have the shop take the other plugs out & check the other cylinders for scoring which ide put money on it that it will show the same scoring...
The shop may check & tell you that there isnt scoring when theyre in-fact is...
Not sure what they were seeing base engine wise that sent them down the time for teardown rabbit hole, that still remains un-answered & they may give you bogus numbers so theyre not held accountable.
Maybe its time to get the phone # for that engineer & turn up the heat yourself. Im sure teardown was costly...That guy also have people up the chain he can report to & get some resolution.
maybe with the engineer you guys can get some suzuki to provide some sort of out of warranty adjustment, especially if the shop was told to continue with teardown by him.
Those vertical scoring marks isnt going to cause a bad leakdown test, you dont have 3 to 6 broken piston rings, etc...
Squeaky wheel get the grease at this point. You need someone in your corner but I have no idea who that is, you need to start making alot of calls & find that person!!!
Im sure the shop isnt wanting to give you too much info at this point especially if all of a sudden you come in asking a ton of questions specifically to what they found, diagnostic true readings, ect....
 
Upvote 0

AllzGood

Baja Bound
Jul 1, 2020
142
90
36
Ventura
Name
Dustin
Boat Name
Parker 2320 Extended Cabin
thats my concern too. is the the other 3 cylinders may have some scoring also & deemed normal scoring even though to the untrained eye seems bad...
If leakdown failed thats generally associated with low compression, so the compression loss was either valves or past the piston...
Some guys shoot from the hip, the vvt system checks out, we boroscoped the cylinders & that doesnt look good so must be that & they never actually do manual comp test, leakdown, etc....
my guess is compression was good, ran smooth at idle, right?
You can also have the shop take the other plugs out & check the other cylinders for scoring which ide put money on it that it will show the same scoring...
The shop may check & tell you that there isnt scoring when theyre in-fact is...
Not sure what they were seeing base engine wise that sent them down the time for teardown rabbit hole, that still remains un-answered & they may give you bogus numbers so theyre not held accountable.
Maybe its time to get the phone # for that engineer & turn up the heat yourself. Im sure teardown was costly...That guy also have people up the chain he can report to & get some resolution.
maybe with the engineer you guys can get some suzuki to provide some sort of out of warranty adjustment, especially if the shop was told to continue with teardown by him.
Those vertical scoring marks isnt going to cause a bad leakdown test, you dont have 3 to 6 broken piston rings, etc...
Squeaky wheel get the grease at this point. You need someone in your corner but I have no idea who that is, you need to start making alot of calls & find that person!!!
Im sure the shop isnt wanting to give you too much info at this point especially if all of a sudden you come in asking a ton of questions specifically to what they found, diagnostic true readings, ect....
Yes apparently compression was good. Ran perfectly at idle.
 
Upvote 0

Slater

cuss on Monday,pray on Sunday,dream about one day
Jun 1, 2006
4,512
1,222
50
Lakeside
Name
Rob
Boat Name
sold! / cattle boat
Yes apparently compression was good. Ran perfectly at idle.
So your job at this point is to stand-up for yourself & talk to the right people, the engineer / rep, maybe they tore it down prematurely without enough diag, cause, etc..
maybe the issue was in the vvt systems, gears, sensors, ecm, oil system, etc...
purely speculation on my part, things may look different if engine was infront of me, had all the pieces to the puzzle, etc...
all these vvt electronic sensors, readings, adjustable cam timing, you need to be an electronics genius to know what it all means, how it works, how to find the needle in the hay stack faults, etc...
If the shop or zuke rep gutted your engine & there isnt problem you shouldnt be on the hook for the bill, theyre the professionals ....
But getting them to stand behind their screw-up is another battle especially for someone that isnt up to speed with engines, warranty processes, etc...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

xJasonsx

Newbie
Sep 9, 2018
14
14
39
Ventura
Name
Jason
Boat Name
2352 Trophy
At this point if the warranty company is denying your claim the best thing you can do is set yourself up for the lawsuit. Hire an expert witness to get a second opinion. Working in the automotive field we see this sometimes on high cost repairs. Have them give their opinion, if it’s not in line with the repair facility at least it puts responsibility on them, either way this financially helps you on either side of the repair.
 
Upvote 0

PACIFICPUNISHER

Biscuit Buster
  • Sep 4, 2009
    652
    457
    So Cal
    Name
    Moondog
    Boat Name
    PARKER 2320 "HOTLINE"
    Contaminants in the fuel like saltwater would cause poor performance and the scoring on the cylinder walls. Didn’t you recently have to replace your fuel tank?? Have you checked the other 4 cylinders for scoring?? If I was a betting man I would say your problems are fuel related
     
    Last edited:
    Upvote 0

    AllzGood

    Baja Bound
    Jul 1, 2020
    142
    90
    36
    Ventura
    Name
    Dustin
    Boat Name
    Parker 2320 Extended Cabin
    So your job at this point is to stand-up for yourself & talk to the right people, the engineer / rep, maybe they tore it down prematurely without enough diag, cause, etc..
    maybe the issue was in the vvt systems, gears, sensors, ecm, oil system, etc...
    purely speculation on my part, things may look different if engine was infront of me, had all the pieces to the puzzle, etc...
    all these vvt electronic sensors, readings, adjustable cam timing, you need to be an electronics genius to know what it all means, how it works, how to find the needle in the hay stack faults, etc...
    If the shop or zuke rep gutted your engine & there isnt problem you shouldnt be on the hook for the bill, theyre the professionals ....
    But getting them to stand behind their screw-up is another battle especially for someone that isnt up to speed with engines, warranty processes, etc...
    Great advice, thank you.

    Ok so tomorrow I am going to the Suzuki shop to have a sit down conversation. We will discuss EXACTLY what was done prior to breakdown, Ive compiled a list of the questions you have all asked for clarification. We will also discuss what to do next. I will keep everyone posted.

    Here is the list I will be discussing. Feel free to add anything not seen

    Compression Test Numbers?

    Leak down (wet/dry): leaked from where?
    • Crankcase/oil pan
    • Intake/exhaust
    Scratches on walls below tdc, possibly not cause of leak

    Piston/piston bore out of spec?

    VVT caused scored cylinders due to improper lubrication?

    Fuel pressure at rail measured while power loss replicated?

    Low voltage issue?


    Thank you again for your guidance along this nightmare
     
    Upvote 0

    Slater

    cuss on Monday,pray on Sunday,dream about one day
    Jun 1, 2006
    4,512
    1,222
    50
    Lakeside
    Name
    Rob
    Boat Name
    sold! / cattle boat
    i dont think that minimal scoring is your issue....
    theres wet & dry compression numbers...
    you add a drop of oil to cylinder after a dry test, so if you suspect a ring or cylinderwall issue, the oil would generally compensate for the issue & increase compression within spec...
    they havent found the issue.....
     
    Upvote 0

    ultimatejay

    Member
    Jan 11, 2019
    268
    228
    51
    Anaheim
    Name
    Jarrett Lynch
    Boat Name
    Cayman 226
    I'm a master mechanic. Scored cylinder walls are caused by foreign object matter or improper fuel octane used causing detonation and cracked rings/scoring.
     
    Upvote 0

    AllzGood

    Baja Bound
    Jul 1, 2020
    142
    90
    36
    Ventura
    Name
    Dustin
    Boat Name
    Parker 2320 Extended Cabin
    As slater mentioned, the “scoring” I mentioned earlier isn’t in fact scoring. It couldn’t even be felt with the finger. With the bad advice of Suzukis Technical Service Rep and demands of Cornerstone we were all led down the wrong rabbit hole.

    After further investigation from the previous owner I found out he shorted something through the battery and replaced the entire wiring harness himself. Unfortunately he did not disclose this to me when I purchased the vessel.

    Extremely frustrating but at least we are heading in the right direction now. It’s electrical not mechanical. My Suzuki Dealer is reassembling everything at the end of this week with the Suzuki Technical Service Manager on site. Might need a new ECM. Time will tell.

    As a side note, Suzuki is giving me a deal I cant refuse on a brand new motor. They werent obligated but I was definitely a squeaky wheel on this one.

    Hopefully it will be an easy electrical fix and I can continue to use the motor while I wait for the new one.

    Ill update everyone later
     
    Last edited:
    Upvote 0

    ultimatejay

    Member
    Jan 11, 2019
    268
    228
    51
    Anaheim
    Name
    Jarrett Lynch
    Boat Name
    Cayman 226
    As slater mentioned, the “scoring” I mentioned earlier isn’t in fact scoring. It couldn’t even be felt with the finger. With the bad advice of Suzukis Technical Service Rep and demands of Cornerstone we were all led down the wrong rabbit hole.

    After further investigation from the previous owner I found out he shorted something through the battery and replaced the entire wiring harness himself. Unfortunately he did not disclose this to me when I purchased the vessel.

    Extremely frustrating but at least we are heading in the right direction now. It’s electrical not mechanical. My Suzuki Dealer is reassembling everything at the end of this week with the Suzuki Technical Service Manager on site. Might need a new ECM. Time will tell.

    As a side note, Suzuki is giving me a deal I cant refuse on a brand new motor. They werent obligated but I was definitely a squeaky wheel on this one.

    Hopefully it will be an easy electrical fix and I can continue to use the motor while I wait for the new one.

    Ill update everyone later
    WHAT A MESS.
     
    Upvote 0

    AllzGood

    Baja Bound
    Jul 1, 2020
    142
    90
    36
    Ventura
    Name
    Dustin
    Boat Name
    Parker 2320 Extended Cabin
    Yup, it’s what boat ownership nightmares are made of. It all started with a dishonest seller, most if not all of this could have been avoided if the seller was upfront during the sale. I would have still bought it. Shorting something on your motor isn’t a big deal. Causing 4 months of downtime and 3k in unnecessary troubleshooting is much worse. Just be honest!!!!! WTF
     
    Upvote 0

    Alan

    Member
    Dec 15, 2003
    600
    53
    Ventura
    atlantisutility.com
    Name
    Alan
    Boat Name
    Skipjack 25
    File a lawsuit ASAP, I had the same issue and ended up suing Suzuki, warranty company and boat US. Had a full settlement within 30 days of filing but it took a lawsuit to get what I needed accomplished.

    Get this they tried to deny liability for the damage because I used my boat in salt water. They will use any reason they can to deny your claim so might as well get started down the right path sooner rather then later.
    Good comment and might as well use your attorney so the wheel does not need to be reinvented.
     
    Upvote 0

    MATTANZA

    WESTCOASTSPREADERBARS.COM
    Advertiser
    Aug 23, 2004
    5,960
    3,599
    Offshore 32* 42 / 119* 08
    Name
    RICK
    Boat Name
    Boston Whaler 25' Outrage "MATTANZA II", 34' Radovcich "AMY ANNE" {when it needs to be fixed}
    insurance companies hate these 3 words.... lawyer, bad faith. bad faith = treble damages.
     
    Upvote 0

    AllzGood

    Baja Bound
    Jul 1, 2020
    142
    90
    36
    Ventura
    Name
    Dustin
    Boat Name
    Parker 2320 Extended Cabin
    Well, here’s the conclusion, if that’s what you want to call it. Suzuki said they will provide me a new replacement motor at a discounted price instead of repairing my current one. Ridiculous enough, they never actually found out what the problem was. Also, DF300’s are oversold and out of stock so I may be waiting a while for my replacement.

    So, I’m officially throwing in the towel on this motor and parting it out. It could also be a fun project for someone who actually knows what they are doing.
     
    Upvote 0

    MattFred1414

    Member
  • Jan 3, 2020
    685
    1,418
    28
    San Diego
    Name
    Matt
    Boat Name
    20ft Skeeter Zx20Bay
    Well, here’s the conclusion, if that’s what you want to call it. Suzuki said they will provide me a new replacement motor at a discounted price instead of repairing my current one. Ridiculous enough, they never actually found out what the problem was. Also, DF300’s are oversold and out of stock so I may be waiting a while for my replacement.

    So, I’m officially throwing in the towel on this motor and parting it out. It could also be a fun project for someone who actually knows what they are doing.
    That sucks you got a bad egg. I’m finally getting a new motor after 9 months of waiting so I feel your pain on the wait. I hope the discount is at least a good one for all the b.s. you’ve had to go through.
     
    Upvote 0

    dwaynesda

    dwayne
    Apr 27, 2003
    1,495
    1,298
    nii
    goog.com
    Name
    go
    Boat Name
    Cabo 216
    Well, here’s the conclusion, if that’s what you want to call it. Suzuki said they will provide me a new replacement motor at a discounted price instead of repairing my current one. Ridiculous enough, they never actually found out what the problem was. Also, DF300’s are oversold and out of stock so I may be waiting a while for my replacement.

    So, I’m officially throwing in the towel on this motor and parting it out. It could also be a fun project for someone who actually knows what they are doing.
    Was that verbal or in writing? If it was verbal, get it in writing asap. Do not leave anything open ended or in doubt. Agree on the terms as far as what you are getting and by when. There might be some negotiations on the "when."

    My friend had a lawsuit against Honda with an outboard and Honda sent high dollar lawyers from out of state to defend in court. Luckily my friend was an attorney and beat them. Treat this as a serious business deal.
     
    Last edited:
    Upvote 0

    AllzGood

    Baja Bound
    Jul 1, 2020
    142
    90
    36
    Ventura
    Name
    Dustin
    Boat Name
    Parker 2320 Extended Cabin
    Agreed, I’ve asked several times for a proposal in writing, they keep dancing around the request. They keep saying we will offer you a “discounted price” as soon as one is available. No date/no price. I’m honestly thinking about walking away from them. Nothing but bad experiences so far.
     
    Upvote 0

    baitedgyro

    Almost A Member
    Dec 1, 2009
    205
    34
    SANTA CLARITA
    Name
    David
    Boat Name
    25' Boston Whaler 1983
    Record the convo’s on your cell phone, not sure if you should tell them before you record them or wait till you started to record the convo then say oh I hope you don’t mind me recording this, thank you, I’ll keep the recorder on.

    Bring a spare mini voice recorder just in case they said no recording then you have proof they denied having the discussions on record.

    I don’t know if the recording ahead or before is legal so check around but record anyways I say.
     
    Upvote 0