North of falcon lawsuit

fishbadger

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    Phish'n Phool

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    Jul 15, 2010
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    Donation made. Frawley has brought other successful suites against WDFW before. This is all about having public meetings during the NOF process. As most have heard by now through other forums and outdoor line podcast, WDFW got played by the co-managers during NOF.
    The public meeting in Lynwood was high jacked to discuss the puget sound chum fishery with very little time focused on chinook seasons. The conversation continued to California and at the 12th hour WDFW negotiated a back door deal with limited chinook seasons for sporties to protect SEVEN returning Stilli fish. Yes, lots more to the story but that’s yet another example of how we need access to these meetings to observe what is going on.

    Jury is out on how this suite will play out. Either way, it can’t get worse than this. Many NOF veterans have said that this was by far the worst NOF in 20+ years.

    Let’s hope this forces the commission to stop delegating the NOF process to the director. Maybe this suite will help. Donating a few bucks to drive accountability and change is the least we can do. At least for folks that can’t donate their time, myself included.
     
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    Hunter Dan

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    Jun 30, 2011
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    I doubt Thurston County Superior Court can do more than apply a fine for breaking state sunshine laws and/or negotiate a settlement with the suing party. Both a hit to the department's already thin budget.
     
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    fishbadger

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    Maybe they will find departmental budget hits to be "motivational" to apply for our own permit.

    fb
     
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    Hunter Dan

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    Maybe they will find departmental budget hits to be "motivational" to apply for our own permit.

    fb
    Our permit is the Chinook management plan. Which, if you recall caused an uproar when a federal judge took then director Unsworth behind closed doors with the comanager treaty tribes and oversaw closed door meetings that produced a document which led many of us to demand Unsworth's firing. NOAA later rejected that plan as inadequate. Leaving the state in the same box riding the tribes Section 7 consultation.
    The next Chinook management plan has to satisfy ESA requirements for both Chinook and Orcas, operate under co management with full 'agreement' from the treaty tribes, comply with the Pacific Salmon Treaty, preferably have a chance to work and not result in public outrage and subsequent shake ups of WDFW leadership. I'm sure there are some public employees most concerned about that last sticky point:-)
    I am also sure multiple bullshit pies will be served up for many to chew on and pretend to enjoy as this process goes on, and I have a sinking feeling that there may never be a chinook plan accepted by NOAA because the current status quo is working so well for some very strong negotiators.
     
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    wdlfbio

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    And even if the state starts their own federal consult, in 6 months there will be a significant change in some factor so things will need rewritten. Then, as that gets typed, 7 months later something else will change, so back to the drawing board. Then, the Orcas will be shown to eat only 4 yr old male kings... that’ll be a whole new aspect to address... it won’t end. Just let all the wild ones die off. Then we can catch all the hatchery fish we want, without impacting the extirpated wild salmon.
     
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    Mpizzle

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    The state is required to have open meetings, the tribes however are not. They are sovereign entities. If the meetings are required to be made public the tribes can simply choose not to attend resulting in a total dissemination of negotiations, and an inability of the state to piggyback the tribes Sec 7 ESA permits. The only party hurt by this type of litigation will be the state and its interests (aka us).

    It’s a bad play.
     
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    koopa

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    Last I checked the meetings don’t take place on tribal land so they can claim tribal sovereignty all they want—it should be a mute point.
     
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    wdlfbio

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    Or maybe, as the tribes said in the past, they won’t participate in open meetings. So, Wdfw can’t force the tribes to attend. No meetings with tribes means no WDFW participation under tribe ESA permit. Means no fishing season for recreational folks???

    Or is there some other workaround, short of WDFW consulting with NOAA Fisheries?
     
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    WSU

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    Wdlfbio - That would put the feds in quite the tricky pickle, wouldn't it.

    Imagine the political fallout of not letting our fishing season happen and costing our state economy a few billion dollars, all so they (the feds) can avoid doing their job. Think they'd get some serious heat from our federal senators and reps like happened last go round? You think the political establishment would stand by while we waste literally billions of dollars because the feds don't want to process the permit? I'm sure they'd come up with the a "federal nexus" to expedite the review.
     
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    Mpizzle

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    Laurence nailed it. They meet because they choose to. They can just decide not to meet and in turn we get no permit.

    Requiring DFW comply with the public meetings laws will simply stop the discussions from taking place.

    What we need to do is figure out why we can’t get our own permit, and what we need to do to make that possible.
     
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    wdlfbio

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    Wouldn’t put the feds anywhere. The state is responsible for initiating the ESA consult. NOAA doesn’t ask the state if they want to. The feds can only respond. If the state doesn’t ask, the feds have nothing to do. The tribes can consult without WDFW. The tribes are allowing WDFW to ride their coattails.

    I’m not saying I like it, but that’s the current system. And, even if WDFW initiated the ESA consult, they’d have to include discussion about all salmon take under their cumulative impacts analysis. That means tribal, bird predation, pinniped predation, orcas, etc. then NOAA would have to have to verify the accuracy of WDFW’s info and do their own analysis anyway. I’d guess a 2-3 yr process. It’s far from simple.
     
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    WSU

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    Wouldn’t put the feds anywhere. The state is responsible for initiating the ESA consult. NOAA doesn’t ask the state if they want to. The feds can only respond. If the state doesn’t ask, the feds have nothing to do. The tribes can consult without WDFW. The tribes are allowing WDFW to ride their coattails.

    I’m not saying I like it, but that’s the current system. And, even if WDFW initiated the ESA consult, they’d have to include discussion about all salmon take under their cumulative impacts analysis. That means tribal, bird predation, pinniped predation, orcas, etc. then NOAA would have to have to verify the accuracy of WDFW’s info and do their own analysis anyway. I’d guess a 2-3 yr process. It’s far from simple.

    We largely agree, except the analysis shouldn’t be any different for the tribes and wdfw. The problem is wdfw will never seek their own permit and force the feds hand unless they have no choice.
     
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    Waterdog~

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    last I checked I was born here on my native land......do I have a vote......
     
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