No God is Welcome in San Diego.......per U.S. District Judge Larry Burns

Saluki

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Hey Carl,

Is this a violation of the Constitution?


"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
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JFK

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I partailly agree with you. But still, can't help but think about a group of men who sequester themselves only to theorize and discuss notions of liberty without it dawning on them that the majority of people in their society are not free, and that they are not simply observing this, but perpetuating it and benefitting monetarily from it. I think it was a convenient oversight, and simply saying that we have no way of seeing the world the way they did is letting them off too easy, and an easy out for those who try to romanticize US history.
 
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Rauterki

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I'm in the market. Make me an offer I can't refuse.
"the majority of people in their society are not free"

You sure about this? Are you really saying that there were more slaves than non-slaves? The first official census taken in 1790 would dispute this.
 
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JFK

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You sure about this? Are you really saying that there were more slaves than non-slaves? The first official census taken in 1790 would dispute this.


Women (50+%) plus slaves = overwhelming majority. And in some southern states slaves did out number whites.
 
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Rauterki

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Women (50+%) plus slaves = overwhelming majority. And in some southern states slaves did out number whites.

If your only criteria for women not being free is the fact that they weren't allowed to vote then you should add every single child to your number as well. Why do you say that women weren't free?
 
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Blackfish

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Does the Constitution really require a strict separation of church and state? That phrase has become so commonplace that many people actually believe it is in the Constitution itself. It is not, of course. Indeed, the phrase reflects a view exactly opposite to what our nation’s Founders actually believed. For them, religion was indispensable for fostering the virtues necessary for successful self-government, and they sought to encourage it wherever they could. The Constitution’s prohibition on the “Establishment of Religion” was designed simply to prevent the federal government from creating a national religion and coercing people to support it, so that religion could flourish and individual freedom of conscience be protected. The fact is, as one Supreme Court justice famously noted, “We are a religious people, whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being.”
 
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JFK

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If your only criteria for women not being free is the fact that they weren't allowed to vote then you should add every single child to your number as well. Why do you say that women weren't free?

Voting is not the only criteria. It wasn't until the 14th amendment (post civil war) that women were even granted constitutional rights under the equal protection clause, and even then they were not allowed to vote and were excluded, in writing, from many activities that we would now include in our idea of freedom.

Thread may be getting off topic and I don't really want to get into an arguement, just pointing out some inaccuracies in people's idea of where our laws came from, and the people who created them. A constitutional law professor gave me some good advise that I still use today, and that was to define where you stand with regard to the constitution (strict versus activist, or somewhere in between), and then apply that consistently versus cherry picking your arguements based on the issue. You'll be surprised where you end up sometimes.
 
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dweston

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Regardless of what any of us think or say God will prevail and yes he loves you confused liberals as well.

Merry Christmas! :waglleybooty:
 
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Marcus

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When I look at our currency I read "In God We Trust".......

Was added to coins initially in 1864 and paper money in 1957. Its placement upon currency were forged entirely within this crucible of national turmoil (Civil War lasting from 1861 to 1865). The Reverend M. R. Watkinson, in a letter dated November 13, 1861, petitioned the Treasury Department to add a statement recognising "Almighty God in some form in our coins." At least part of the motivation was to declare that God was on the Union side of the Civil War.

It's a Monument on a hill. Big deal.

If you decide to interpret it as a "religious symbol", that is your prerogative.....but just because YOU have a problem with it does not mean you have a right to impose your bizarro world paranoia on the rest of us. Don't look at it if you don't like it.


of course, this just makes too much sense.....no MONEY gets redistributed to the Lawyers.

The issue people have with it is that it is being funded by the govt. which is showing a preference for a religion. It's a cross which is the universal symbol of christianity. There is no other way to interpret it.

When a Government Official takes office he places his hand on the Bible and Swears to God to uphold the laws of this Country.....

Someone being sworn in can actually use whatever religious text they want. Does not have to be the bible.

Hey Carl,

Is this a violation of the Constitution?


"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

You do know that was added in 1956 right? It was used as a way to distinguish us from the godless communists during the cold war.

Either way I don't have an issue with the cross.
 
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Marcus

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Voting is not the only criteria. It wasn't until the 14th amendment (post civil war) that women were even granted constitutional rights under the equal protection clause, and even then they were not allowed to vote and were excluded, in writing, from many activities that we would now include in our idea of freedom.

Thread may be getting off topic and I don't really want to get into an arguement, just pointing out some inaccuracies in people's idea of where our laws came from, and the people who created them. A constitutional law professor gave me some good advise that I still use today, and that was to define where you stand with regard to the constitution (strict versus activist, or somewhere in between), and then apply that consistently versus cherry picking your arguements based on the issue. You'll be surprised where you end up sometimes.

Stop using logic. This is Bloodydecks and there is no place for that in a thread........ :D
 
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ConSeaMate

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Was added to coins initially in 1864 and paper money in 1957. Its placement upon currency were forged entirely within this crucible of national turmoil (Civil War lasting from 1861 to 1865). The Reverend M. R. Watkinson, in a letter dated November 13, 1861, petitioned the Treasury Department to add a statement recognising "Almighty God in some form in our coins." At least part of the motivation was to declare that God was on the Union side of the Civil War.

[h=2] History of 'In God We Trust'
[/h]
The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861. It was written to Secretary Chase by Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Ridleyville, Pennsylvania, and read:
Dear Sir: You are about to submit your annual report to the Congress respecting the affairs of the national finances. One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.
This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.
To you first I address a subject that must be agitated.
As a result, Secretary Chase instructed James Pollock, Director of the Mint at Philadelphia, to prepare a motto, in a letter dated November 20, 1861:
Dear Sir: No nation can be strong except in the strength of God, or safe except in His defense. The trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins. You will cause a device to be prepared without unnecessary delay with a motto expressing in the fewest and tersest words possible this national recognition.
It was found that the Act of Congress dated January 18, 1837, prescribed the mottoes and devices that should be placed upon the coins of the United States. This meant that the mint could make no changes without the enactment of additional legislation by the Congress. In December 1863, the Director of the Mint submitted designs for new one-cent coin, two-cent coin, and three-cent coin to Secretary Chase for approval. He proposed that upon the designs either OUR COUNTRY; OUR GOD or GOD, OUR TRUST should appear as a motto on the coins. In a letter to the Mint Director on December 9, 1863, Secretary Chase stated:
I approve your mottoes, only suggesting that on that with the Washington obverse the motto should begin with the word OUR, so as to read OUR GOD AND OUR COUNTRY. And on that with the shield, it should be changed so as to read: IN GOD WE TRUST.
The Congress passed the Act of April 22, 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.
Another Act of Congress passed on March 3, 1865. It allowed the Mint Director, with the Secretary's approval, to place the motto on all gold and silver coins that "shall admit the inscription thereon." Under the Act, the motto was placed on the gold double-eagle coin, the gold eagle coin, and the gold half-eagle coin. It was also placed on the silver dollar coin, the half-dollar coin and the quarter-dollar coin, and on the nickel three-cent coin beginning in 1866. Later, Congress passed the Coinage Act of February 12, 1873. It also said that the Secretary "may cause the motto IN GOD WE TRUST to be inscribed on such coins as shall admit of such motto."
The use of IN GOD WE TRUST has not been uninterrupted. The motto disappeared from the five-cent coin in 1883, and did not reappear until production of the Jefferson nickel began in 1938. Since 1938, all United States coins bear the inscription. Later, the motto was found missing from the new design of the double-eagle gold coin and the eagle gold coin shortly after they appeared in 1907. In response to a general demand, Congress ordered it restored, and the Act of May 18, 1908, made it mandatory on all coins upon which it had previously appeared. IN GOD WE TRUST was not mandatory on the one-cent coin and five-cent coin. It could be placed on them by the Secretary or the Mint Director with the Secretary's approval.
The motto has been in continuous use on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on the ten-cent coin since 1916. It also has appeared on all gold coins and silver dollar coins, half-dollar coins, and quarter-dollar coins struck since July 1, 1908.
A law passed by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States. IN GOD WE TRUST was first used on paper money in 1957, when it appeared on the one-dollar silver certificate. The first paper currency bearing the motto entered circulation on October 1, 1957. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) was converting to the dry intaglio printing process. During this conversion, it gradually included IN GOD WE TRUST in the back design of all classes and denominations of currency.
As a part of a comprehensive modernization program the BEP successfully developed and installed new high-speed rotary intaglio printing presses in 1957. These allowed BEP to print currency by the dry intaglio process, 32 notes to the sheet. One-dollar silver certificates were the first denomination printed on the new high-speed presses. They included IN GOD WE TRUST as part of the reverse design as BEP adopted new dies according to the law. The motto also appeared on one-dollar silver certificates of the 1957-A and 1957-B series.
BEP prints United States paper currency by an intaglio process from engraved plates. It was necessary, therefore, to engrave the motto into the printing plates as a part of the basic engraved design to give it the prominence it deserved.
One-dollar silver certificates series 1935, 1935-A, 1935-B, 1935-C, 1935-D, 1935-E, 1935-F, 1935-G, and 1935-H were all printed on the older flat-bed presses by the wet intaglio process. P.L. 84-140 recognized that an enormous expense would be associated with immediately replacing the costly printing plates. The law allowed BEP to gradually convert to the inclusion of IN GOD WE TRUST on the currency. Accordingly, the motto is not found on series 1935-E and 1935-F one-dollar notes. By September 1961, IN GOD WE TRUST had been added to the back design of the Series 1935-G notes. Some early printings of this series do not bear the motto. IN GOD WE TRUST appears on all series 1935-H one-dollar silver certificates.
Below is a listing by denomination of the first production and delivery dates for currency bearing IN GOD WE TRUST:
DENOMINATIONPRODUCTIONDELIVERY
$1 Federal Reserve Note February 12, 1964March 11, 1964
$5 United States Note January 23, 1964March 2, 1964
$5 Federal Reserve Note July 31, 1964September 16, 1964
$10 Federal Reserve Note February 24, 1964April 24, 1964
$20 Federal Reserve Note October 7, 1964October 7, 1964
$50 Federal Reserve Note August 24, 1966September 28, 1966
$100 Federal Reserve Note August 18, 1966September 27, 1966

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The issue people have with it is that it is being funded by the govt. which is showing a preference for a religion. It's a cross which is the universal symbol of christianity. There is no other way to interpret it.

So everyone of the Soldiers that died in WWII and were buried over seas were all Christians?

st-charles-de-potijze-1000.jpg




Someone being sworn in can actually use whatever religious text they want. Does not have to be the bible.

Yes I know this but in the History of this Country only one President wasn't sworn in not using the bible.......



You do know that was added in 1956 right? It was used as a way to distinguish us from the godless communists during the cold war.

Either way I don't have an issue with the cross.
 
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Saluki

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You do know that was added in 1956 right? It was used as a way to distinguish us from the godless communists during the cold war.



I don't give a rats ass when it was added, is it unconstitutional?

That was the question.
 
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Marcus

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I don't give a rats ass when it was added, is it unconstitutional?

That was the question.

It depends on how you interpret the constitution. Strict constitutionalist, probably. Activist, probably not. That's why it goes to courts.
 
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Marcus

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Frank, here are other grave markers that are not crosses used for US servicemen:

4608664414_70d7e7a1dd.jpg

The cross, star of david, etc. represent that persons faith. So yes the cross is a symbol of religion. If you look at headstones that are your typical gravestone shape the religious persuasion of the soldier is signified by a cross, star of david, etc.

Yes I know this but in the History of this Country only one President wasn't sworn in not using the bible.......

Teddy Roosevelt did not swear in on a bible.

John Quincy Adams swore in on a law book.
 
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ConSeaMate

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Frank, here are other grave markers that are not crosses used for US servicemen:

View attachment 487872

The cross, star of david, etc. represent that persons faith. So yes the cross is a symbol of religion. If you look at headstones that are your typical gravestone shape the religious persuasion of the soldier is signified by a cross, star of david, etc.



Teddy Roosevelt did not swear in on a bible.

John Quincy Adams swore in on a law book.

I agree that you should be able to have the marker that represents your faith but trying to take something away now because people interpret things differently now is just plain and morally wrong.
 
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ConSeaMate

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and thanks....I just got a $39 Social security raise......:rofl:......
 
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Marcus

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I agree that you should be able to have the marker that represents your faith but trying to take something away now because people interpret things differently now is just plain and morally wrong.

It's the use of public funds for religious symbols that has some people up in arms.

It's nothing new and GWB tried to get around it during the prior issue.

It doesn't offend me at all and I have no issue with it. I'm just playing devils advocate to a lot of the arguments on here.

The issue I have is that if there was a crescent and star (symbology for muslims) erected for US soldiers of muslim faith using public funds there would be howls of derision from the same people defending the use of public funds on the cross. That's the hypocrisy I see.
 
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ConSeaMate

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It's the use of public funds for religious symbols that has some people up in arms.

It's nothing new and GWB tried to get around it during the prior issue.

It doesn't offend me at all and I have no issue with it. I'm just playing devils advocate to a lot of the arguments on here.

The issue I have is that if there was a crescent and star (symbology for muslims) erected for US soldiers of muslim faith using public funds there would be howls of derision from the same people defending the use of public funds on the cross. That's the hypocrisy I see.

I have no problem with a US Soldier that was a Muslim displaying his symbol........he/she earned it.....
 
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Saluki

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It depends on how you interpret the constitution. Strict constitutionalist, probably. Activist, probably not. That's why it goes to courts.



And who appoints these judges in Federal courts?
 
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MikeyLikesIt

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Regardless of what any of us think or say God will prevail and yes he loves you confused liberals as well.

Merry Christmas! :waglleybooty:

LIKE!
 
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middleofnowhere

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I have no problem with a US Soldier that was a Muslim displaying his symbol........he/she earned it.....

From: http://www.cem.va.gov/hmm/emblems.asp
I don't have a problem with any of these being displayed, nor do I have a problem with my tax dollars being used to pay for a headstone on a veteran's grave, no matter the faith.
I am blown away by what the VA has available on the above website, the Star and Crescent being one of them.



emb-17.jpg


Here are just a few more:



emb-51.jpg



emb-52.jpg




emb-53.jpg


emb-54.jpg

emb-55.jpg



emb-56.jpg





emb-57.jpg


The issue I have is that if there was a crescent and star (symbology for muslims) erected for US soldiers of muslim faith using public funds there would be howls of derision from the same people defending the use of public funds on the cross. That's the hypocrisy I see.
Who are you trying to bait?
 
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Marcus

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