NEED HELP ON HOW TO MAKE A SERVE

Discussion in 'San Diego Long Range fishing Reports' started by fyermn, Oct 24, 2010.

  1. fyermn

    fyermn Member

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    Dan
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    I am finally going to use Hollow Spectra for my up coming 10 day trip. My question is what is the best way to serve the connection without using crimps? I have the clamps to hold the line, but no bobbin type device. In heavy gear, what type of material should I use to act as the serve, and how should I do it?

    Am I correct that the serve is just to hold the line in slack conditions, and that the finger -trap is what holds under a load? If that is the case, then why does the serve have to be very tight?

    I leave on the trip on November 4th, and I am in Utah, where I can't just go out and buy the needed materials.

    Thanks for your assistance!
     
  2. Cast Gold

    Cast Gold hss AHHHH...hss AHHHH....

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    I use a bow string serving tool from an archery store, and wrap it like a guide on a rod. Serving tool is wound tight down to the line and wraps are made under the tension applied by the tool. I use old 50# solid spectra for serving.
     
  3. Bank Robber

    Bank Robber Hyperbolist

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    Last edited: Oct 24, 2010
  4. jgs_sd

    jgs_sd Newbie

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    If you go to the Blackwater website there is a tutorial how they do their rigging.

    Its easy to follow.
     
  5. Bill W

    Bill W tunaholic

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    If you want to get a serve bobbin the Beiter heavy duty is the one to get. The serve is designed to slip as the the line streches inside the hollow, but not much.

    If you want to try your hand, a hollow needle set really helps. I like the DaHo needles. I do not use a latch needle and rarely use the loop needles. Both can be replaced with a doubled 40# wire.

    Get the mono/leader line up the hollow, then... Use your clamps.

    Using a serve bobbin and using 30-50# solid spectra start about 1 1/2 to 2" where the hollow ends, wind over the tag end twards the end of the spectra. The better serves are tight, some to the point of the spectra going clear. 3/4 of an inch cut the tag end and continue to wrap to the end of the hollow. Fall off the hollow onto the mono/leader and just do 2 more wraps. Now reverse your serve bobbin 180 degrees and wrap over the previous wrap tward where you first started. About 1/2 inch from the end place a wire or spectra loop in under your loops. You will also have to loosen the tight wraps here to get the tag end under the wraps. Just pull some spectra from the bobbin and hand wrap the last 1/2 ". Pull the spectra under and using a dowel with a notch in it, pull the wraps tight. Glue the whole serve with either R/C tire glue or Jerry Brown glue (or whatever the latest greatest stuff is on the market).

    Or...
    Fishing with Gary Teraoka: The "NUB" Connection System

    Try this....

    I do the nub/nail knot. A clamp is not needed....
     
  6. Garabaldi

    Garabaldi Newbie

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    What is wrong with a Sato crimp or even two and glue? I think I could set up three leaders using the Sato method in the time it takes to serve one leader via some of the newer hand tied serve methods mentioned.

    Are the newer hand tied serves really any stronger?

    Do they go through your guides that much better when casting?

    Seems to me like there is a greater margin for user error when performing a hand tied serve?

    Have seen both connections work fine, and at some point in time both of them fail as well, so just wondering if it is worth the extra time and effort to learn to serve vs. using the faster, simpler Sato crimp and glue method when making up your own leaders (obviously the professionally served leaders by Basil and others in the biz are a different story cuz they are all made with the best commercial equipment under higher pressure with less margin for user error).

    Appreciate hearing your thoughts and experiences...
     
  7. Bill W

    Bill W tunaholic

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    Are the newer hand tied serves really any stronger?

    The nub does not slip, so yes it is.

    Do they go through your guides that much better when casting?

    Much better..... (yes)

    Crimps do break. As a crimp turns a corner (your tip top) it presents a sharper bend. There have been failures when the crimp hangs up on the tip top under load.

    Crimps do not cover the end of spectra insert. Crimps work on deforming the mono/leader that is under the spectra. How much is enough without damaging the fluro and spectra is your guess. Both are a slippery material so....

    Are crimps better than a serve.... No.

    You will not see crimps sold on a JAK or Basil made topshot or any other topshot that you will purchase. The only way to fish a crimp is to crimp it yourself. The only reason the crimp is popular is because it is quick, not because it is better.

    For me the nub/nail is just as quick.

    Maybe someone who can proove me wrong. Start selling crimped topshots and leaders.
     
  8. OmanGT

    OmanGT Newbie

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    [ I have the clamps to hold the line, but no bobbin type device. In heavy gear, what type of material should I use to act as the serve, and how should I do it?]

    I don't have a bobbin either but I use 50# solid spectra and wrap by hand just as you would a rod guide. Check the Blackwater site for how to do the serve but just do it by hand...it comes out just fine. You can get tight wraps by hand no problem.
     
  9. Mike G ...

    Mike G ... Newbie

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  10. charles v. West

    charles v. West Guitarman

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    Just get on the boat,bring your spectra and leader material and the guys will fall over themselves to help you. I use unwaxed dental floss and wrap by hand.Get someone to inspect your work. the crew is always ready to help. I am on the Qualifier 105 the day after thanxgiving. YEAH BABY!!!1
     
  11. Sactotuna

    Sactotuna Well-Known "Member"

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    I disagree with every answer.
    Different strokes for different folks.
    Your mileage may vary.
     
  12. Steve K

    Steve K Hey, I'm gettin' bit...

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    Just get on the boat, bring your spectra and leader material and the guys will fall over themselves to help you. I use unwaxed dental floss and wrap by hand.Get someone to inspect your work. the crew is always ready to help.

    Truer words were never spoken. A little over a week is a bit quick to learn the techniques and get yourself ready for the trip. Why trust the possible fish of a lifetime to a served connection that you're trying to learn. Whether it's the crew or some of the anglers on the trip that help, there will be lots of people willing to help.

    As I was told a few years ago, when asking how to get set up for my first ten day in search of big ones; "Just show up.";)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  13. HermosaJoe

    HermosaJoe Well-Known "Member"

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    This late in the game, buy your leaders from Basil. You won't pay a whole lot more.
     
  14. Fishybuzz

    Fishybuzz fishybuzz

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    Just use two nail knots...5 years no failures....easy and smooth through the guides IMO serves are not necessary....
     
  15. Garabaldi

    Garabaldi Newbie

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    Bill,

    I use both Sato crimp/glue hand made leaders and professionally served leaders (I actually order my pre-made served leaders now with an open end so I can do a hollow to hollow in-line splice vs. the loop to loop thing). When making my own leaders I like the Sato connection mainly because it is quick and strong if done right, and the margin for user error is rather low with just a little practice.

    Have never seen a Sato get hung up on a tip guide, roller or ring where it had to bend around under load as you say. I have been using rather short fluoro leaders 15' max for the past few years so the Sato crimp is often outside my tip guide when a fish is gaffed, especially when up on the bow where you are already 8ft or more above the water on most LR vessels (private boat or charter is obviously a different story).

    The professionally served leaders do seem to cast a bit better in 100lb (but as we all know, casting 100lb is not easy to begin with and best distance is still pretty short). I am still trying to decide on whether or not to learn one of the newer serve methods using the proper tools, etc. (suppose its one of those things that you just have to get help with and try a few times and see how it works for YOU).

    Tight lines!
     
  16. fyermn

    fyermn Member

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    Is their a particular reason why the serve has to be so very tight? Isn't purpose to hold the lines together under slack conditions, and the finger trap of the hollow to mono to hold under tight conditions?

    I believe I will obtain some 30-50lb. spectra for serve material, and ask for assistance on the boat from other fisherman.

    I have been doing LONG RANGE for a number of years, using solid spectra and longer top shots. This year I am adding Hollow Spectra to the solid and fishing with much shorter top shots.

    I am just glad to be going fishing!
     
  17. jgs_sd

    jgs_sd Newbie

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    Like Fishybuzz said just two nail knots and a drop of glue and you are good to go.

    No hassle trying to size crimps. With nail knots you just tye them and there done.

    Besides someone said earlier to just show up with some leader material and someone will want to practice there leader skill on you.
     
  18. Bill W

    Bill W tunaholic

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    When you are on a fish there are times when the line gets very tight and then loose. Such as when the fish dies or is hooked in the tail, or any other odd problem. The chinese finger pulls from the end of the leader or mono that you inserted 5 feet inside. That is why you need to bullet shape the mono end, so it can freely move back and forth inside the hollow. As the mono or fluro streches the diameter of it gets smaller, allowing the crimp or serve holding to slip. The crimp will slip, and the serve is designed to slip also.

    On a tight connection that does not come loose you do not need 5 feet for the chinese finger to distribute 100%. I have not checked, but read it only takes 12" for the chinese finger to hold. (not sure if that is with fluro) The problem is fishing is not a static tight pull....

    The 5 feet is insurance. There will be slip when on a fish for a while. It's that compression and decompression that moves the serve or crimp. The longer you are on with compression and decompressions of the serve the more you should worry. Measure your insert before and after fishing and see...

    One connection that seems to work well for me is the nub/nail knot system. I only go up 2 feet into the hollow with it. It is also the smoothest transition for casting and entering the guides I have found. I know everyone has to be confident in their own game plan. When making your own leaders with serves it is subject to details that you may feel important.

    http://garyteraoka.blogspot.com/2008/06/nub-connection-system.html

    One detail that I believe ties the nub down well is to lightly burn the fray on the hollow when inserting the mono while on the steel hollow needle. This burn will cause small beads on the spectra end. After the nub and the primary outside nail is installed, place a nail knot on the end with half the knot wraps on the hollow spectra and half the knot wraps on the leader. The beads being sandwiched in the middle when pulled tight to clear. Kinda like the idea of burning the tip of the mono on a crimped hook. This gives a lock to the primary nub and nail.
     
  19. migelito

    migelito Member

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    For 100-150# leaders how many turns are you guys using on the nail knots and what # test spectra is best for the nail knot? Is it the same for flouro or mono? Ive been doing a little bit of testing with the serves and nail knots. Serves I've been doing for a few years so I have that method down. But the nails with or without the nub seem to have more slip then my serves. I use a sharpie to mark the point where the mono/flouro comes out of the hollow. This will let me know how much has slipped out of the hollow without having to measure the inserted amount. I'll also take a caliper reading of the mono just to make sure its not all from stretch.
    Any advice on the nail system is greatly appreciated. It seems faster but until I can do it with enough confidence I'll stick with the serves.
     
  20. Fishybuzz

    Fishybuzz fishybuzz

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    I use 50# solid spectra, 6 or 7 turns pull till spectra turns translucent I insert about 3 feet of the leader material into the hollow spectra put a drop or two of your favorite glue on the knots I use this Japanese glue great stuff, one part doesn't go bad stays flexible penetrates instantly....I use the nail knot for mono or flouro ...I have had no issues with slippage.
     

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