My First Self-Customized Flat Fall

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locvetter

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    Since this topic falls between the wonderful recent threads on flat fall techniques and the iconic threads on welded rings, and not wanting to hijack either thread, I'm starting this new one.

    It is a bit long -- but there are pictures at the end, for those who prefer to fast forward to those.

    So, in the spirit of overthinking:

    · Given the frequency of mention of flat falls in posts on cow bluefin, I resolved I gotta get me some.

    · Glow seemed the way

    · Upscale the hooks seemed the way

    · There were mentions of failures of the spectra assists and with some split rings

    · Got some really cool creations of Guy @ ringedhooks – hurt myself just handling them. He warned me.

    · Got some from Squidco, Anglers Choice, Fisherman’s, H and M, and some others

    · Got some UNRIGGED - from 160g through 820!

    · Looked hard at scores more.

    · Now I have the entire new field of rigging them myself to seriously consider!

    · Researched “welded” rings. All the threads, YouTube, company info, ... . And I mean a lot of hours, just reading and watching: solder, braze, tig, mig, laser and micro arc.

    · Then hours trying different, brazing rods, flames. (I can mig, but do not have a tig setup.)

    · Cannot afford nor find a place to rent an Orion micro arc system – which I think would be the best option, (Start at about $2600). Clean, looks ease, real weld, but would have to have a least their model 100c.

    · Tried to interest the local jeweler, who has a laser welding system, but I was not successful. The machines are $10,000 plus, and look to have a bit of a learning curve.

    · Now have Smith Little torch (common in the jewelry industry) and am using Oxy-Mepp on Smith Little. (Acetylene too dangerous indoors)

    · Got jump rings from a chain maille place, a jewelry industry supply place, and Rosco. Multiple sizes. Enough for 3 lifetimes.

    · Tried various pre and post weld prep/cleaning options,

    · Used my pull-to-failure machine as well as manually twisting several hundred efforts, and some commercial ringed hooks.

    · Decided I wanted to come as close to flat black as possible, adding another bit of complexity, to nitro coat the shiny elements.

    · Already have my UV box to charge and test the various glows. I posted it here someplace.
    https://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/t...version-the-unneeded-uvr.693245/#post-4624700


    What the …

    Without question it would be better to just go with Guy and Annette at RingedHooks, or some other great pro.

    HUGELY absent from my research are any significant real fishing trials!!!


    Anyway, here is the first one I would consider fishing:

    300g glow spread.JPG



    It is 300 gms, Jobu (9/0 big, 7/0 smaller), to #6 Rosco, to Aussie 4mm from LeaderTec, to #6L Rosco and lure. Similar at top end and Delrin thimble. There will be a swivel at the upper end of 4’ of 200# Seaguar Blue fluoro.

    My horribly cluttered workspace, showing the UV'r:
    Benchmess.JPG


    This particular flat fall, which is not marked with a brand, has exceptional glow, and I am very pleased by the almost disappearance of hooks, etc. when the lights are turned out:
    300g big glow obverse.JPG
    300g big glow rigged .JPG
    300g on ladder.JPG
    300g on ladder glow.JPG



    Here is a typical session of tries with which I was not satisfied, including a burned 7/0 Jobu - Ouch!. The one Aussie is one I used to pull to failure. A ring failed at 146lbs.
    fails.JPG


    There is no good science here. Things that swayed my choices:

    · Jobus are really very black, not very shiny, very sharp, I have been unable to bend them.

    · Aussie swivels because I have broken several other brands on my tester and the 4mm size used are thin – almost like the spectra cords on some good assist set ups.

    · #6 Rosco - When I got a good looking braze, 200# Fluoro broke before the ring even bent.

    · Rosco rings – because I have just under 1000 of so many sizes, and they seem to be mentioned a lot on fishing forums, and they come spread far enough to get the swivels on without more bending – ridiculously poor reasons.

    · 3/64” 56% silver, flux coated because I got good flow more consistently – actually probably because I had gotten better at the technique when I got around to trying it. The 70,000 psi tensile strength is actually higher than that of any of the bronze 1/16thor smaller rod that I found. Also, I found bronze more difficult to use.

    · I did pickle all my brazes, so corrosion will not be an issue

    · Black flux – because someone on BD, for whom I have high regard, but have never met, said he used it.

    · Delrin grommets, even though I have broken several in my tester, I used them because they are very black, and the fails were at >200# loads

    · B4 sleeves, because they are dark, and calibrated to my Nico swagger, from Basil.

    · Oxy-MAPP gas with Smith Little torch, using a double #4 tip – because everything was easy to find, the #3 tip heated thigs so slowly, and this set up brought the ring to a just-brighter-than-dull red quickly enough that I didn’t think I was overheating my hook or swivel. The flame is some fraction of the size of the frequently referenced propane and butane options, and MUCH hotter.

    · NI Black-40 from SUR-FIN Chemical company, because it was very easy to use, and designed by chemical engineers that do that stuff for use on stainless. Here is the before and after of a Mustad 7691S which I soaked in a little bag of this stuff. Not hyper durable, but very black. I might look for a black clear coat to improve durability. Anyone with suggestions for a flat finish clear coat spray for salt water use?
    Mustad 7691S.JPG
    Mustad 7691S post NO-40.JPG



    When I look back at this experience so far – is is VERY fiscally irresponsible!

    PLEASE: Would love to hear critiques. Plenty of time before my January '19 trip.
     
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    ZZZZZ

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    Dec 11, 2003
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    I don't like split rings which was mentioned. The line can get caught up in the split ring.

    Not sure why I have not seen it yet. I don't doubt its being done. Why not glow paint the hooks so they look like squid tentacles. Instead of trying to be stealth with all those hooks. How about glow hooks as part of enticing a bite?
     
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    yakdout

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    I silver solder my own solid rings in my house all the time. As long as you have a few windows open and maybe a window fan no biggie.

    Did you soak those rings in your black chemical or are they that black from your torch? If black from your your torch, you’re doing it wrong
     
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    locvetter

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    I don't like split rings which was mentioned. The line can get caught up in the split ring.

    Not sure why I have not seen it yet. I don't doubt its being done. Why not glow paint the hooks so they look like squid tentacles. Instead of trying to be stealth with all those hooks. How about glow hooks as part of enticing a bite?
    I mentioned the split rings only in the context of noting that many have not been happy with them.

    Your idea of making the hooks etc glow is enticing. I do have some glow epoxy stuff, that has been looking for an indication. Thanks for the idea.
     
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    ZZZZZ

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    I know. I was agreeing with what you mentioned :)

    Glow the hooks. Big gut feeling on that
     
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    locvetter

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    I silver solder my own solid rings in my house all the time. As long as you have a few windows open and maybe a window fan no biggie.

    Did you soak those rings in your black chemical or are they that black from your torch? If black from your your torch, you’re doing it wrong
    I am glad you concur that silver soldering/brazing (depending on whether it below or above 840F) is safe indoors. The unsafe thing I mentioned was use of acetylene as the flammable in an oxy setup. There are lots of warnings about that. The Oxy-MAPP I chose I think is a lot safer, in terms of noxious fumes.

    On the black -- it is all from the Ni Black soak. I actually, on some of the big rings, used my Dremel to abrade off the black from the torch and flux. Most of the flux stain comes off with the pickle. (Warm acid bath.) Yes, I did get my own little one quart slow cooker for that, and did not use my wife's.
     
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    yakdout

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    I am glad you concur that silver soldering/brazing (depending on whether it below or above 840F) is safe indoors. The unsafe thing I mentioned was use of acetylene as the flammable in an foxy setup. There are lots of warnings about that. The Oxy-MAPP I chose I think is a lot safer, in terms of noxious fumes.

    On the black -- it is all from the Ni Black soak. I actually, on some of the big rings, used my drummer to abrade off the black from the torch and flux. Most of the flux stain comes off with the pickle. (Warm acid bath.) Yes, I did get my own little one quart slow cooker for that, and did not use my wife's.

    Was the soldering done before or after the black soak? Just thinking if done before, could hinder your ring from getting a good solder connection. The stainless needs to be pretty clean.

    Also how much flux are you using? When I do rings I just put a small amount on the joint, drop it in water right after and the flux usually pops off. Or a 5 seconds pass with a wire brush good as new.
     
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    locvetter

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    Was the soldering done before or after the black soak? Just thinking if done before, could hinder your ring from getting a good solder connection. The stainless needs to be pretty clean.

    Also how much flux are you using? When I do rings I just put a small amount on the joint, drop it in water right after and the flux usually pops off. Or a 5 seconds pass with a wire brush good as new.
    Did the Ni-Black 40 after everything was assembled.
    On most of my joints I have been using a very thin diamond coated Dremel disk, which is abrasive on both surfaces, to freshen the ends of the butt rings just before the braze. I actually cannot tell if that makes it stronger, but some reading suggested to me that it is mainly the metal between the ends that is most important. Some jewelers are quite extreme in there surface prep. I certainly have had abject failures that I suspect had to do with cleanliness of my surfaces. I have dubbed it my dreaded silver balls, when the flow isn't feeling it.
     
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    hhal

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    if it floats, flies or phucks you rent it...
    and I thought I got a little crazy with this stuff! and why wouldn't you just buy the ones done up by Guy?
     
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    hhal

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    if it floats, flies or phucks you rent it...
    a follow up question... you mention using 200 lb. Izor mono for your jigs... will the intense UV and heat in your UV charge box have any effect on the mono? I imagine that the heat isn't actually much of an issue, but since you found it appropriate to install a fan in the box I dunno what heat levels in the box are like...
    I am gonna read more carefully on your box write-up to see if you indicate if it is battery powered...
     
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    TOTW

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    Way to jump in with both feet!

    I’ve found that a “twist” test will tell you whether your connection is integral. It's probably a bit easier than putting each one on a tensioner, too.
     
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    locvetter

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    a follow up question... you mention using 200 lb. Izor mono for your jigs... will the intense UV and heat in your UV charge box have any effect on the mono? I imagine that the heat isn't actually much of an issue, but since you found it appropriate to install a fan in the box I dunno what heat levels in the box are like...
    I am gonna read more carefully on your box write-up to see if you indicate if it is battery powered...

    The box actually has a fan, typically used to cool computers, and does not seem to get very warm.
    I thought I said Seaguar Fluoro, which is not as UV sensitive as is mono. Also, although I am not using it in the picture, there is a notch in the side of the UV'r, so that none of the line would be exposed.
     
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    locvetter

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    Way to jump in with both feet!

    I’ve found that a “twist” test will tell you whether your connection is integral. It's probably a bit easier than putting each one on a tensioner, too.
    AGREE! If you look at the pile of rejected rings, there are many that are bent, by me, with pliers. Actually I find that more convincing than the not realistic straight pull of my break-it rack.

    Of course all of this lacks validity, until and only when your "TOTW" gets enjoyed.
     
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    locvetter

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    I see the large Owner Ultra Split Rings are rated for 270lbs. What's wrong with using outhouse on Flat Falls
    Can't really justify doing what I am doing rather than just using good split rings. There are very strong and deform less than many heavier snaps. There are a few reports of line getting caught on the spot rings, but, to be honest, the swivels and hooks can get stuck askew.

    There may be an element here of seeing if making it and then using it will allow enjoying it twice.

    Also, I enjoy chats like this.
     
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    locvetter

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    and I thought I got a little crazy with this stuff! and why wouldn't you just buy the ones done up by Guy?
    Probably should. As I mention above, it may be to test the notion that if you build it and use it you enjoy it twice. (?)
     
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    hhal

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    if it floats, flies or phucks you rent it...
    I read back and apparently you did say 200# Seaguar Blue Fluro... must have read the Blue part and my brain translated that to Blue Izor Mono. The brain is a strange thing!
    It's funny, I have a bunch of these jigs pre-rigged and I am planning on re-rigging them the way I want. Information keeps changing here, and I am never quite sure how the hell I'm supposed to re-rig them... do I join the 'original hook crew' or do I go the Luke/Thunderbird route? I tend to lean towards the Luke/TB/Guyster methodology and away from the 'ohc' but then I fret over fluro or mono, 130 or 150 or 200? and why not 49 strand wire? Flat Fall or Fall Flat or the Squish??? 200, 250, 300, 500 or the OMG 800 gram jig? I get the swivel on the hooks idea but do I swivel at the top of the lure or the top of the leader? And will I have any money left over to buy a trip? Full moon or New moon or something in-between...
    Did I mention that I am a little bit crazy? Should I mention it again???
     
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    locvetter

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    I read back and apparently you did say 200# Seaguar Blue Fluro... must have read the Blue part and my brain translated that to Blue Izor Mono. The brain is a strange thing!
    It's funny, I have a bunch of these jigs pre-rigged and I am planning on re-rigging them the way I want. Information keeps changing here, and I am never quite sure how the hell I'm supposed to re-rig them... do I join the 'original hook crew' or do I go the Luke/Thunderbird route? I tend to lean towards the Luke/TB/Guyster methodology and away from the 'ohc' but then I fret over fluro or mono, 130 or 150 or 200? and why not 49 strand wire? Flat Fall or Fall Flat or the Squish??? 200, 250, 300, 500 or the OMG 800 gram jig? I get the swivel on the hooks idea but do I swivel at the top of the lure or the top of the leader? And will I have any money left over to buy a trip? Full moon or New moon or something in-between...
    Did I mention that I am a little bit crazy? Should I mention it again???
    We might ask one another if this is living while we live, or entrapment by tangents that cannot be justified. Dum vivimus: Venite vivere, indeed.

    Did you notice the thought of ZZZZZ, that glow hooks might mimic
    tentacles. Not sure why I have not seen it yet. I don't doubt its being done. Why not glow paint the hooks so they look like squid tentacles. Instead of trying to be stealth with all those hooks. How about glow hooks as part of enticing a bite?
    I have some and am getting more glow epoxy, green, blue, non glow white powder and clear coat spray, and plan to play with that as well.
     
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    Corndog

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    Interestingly on the 6 day I got back on half the fish where caught on non glow jigs and with no moon visible either. Sometimes I think we over think this stuff. I am a believer in adding assist hooks however. I was lacking them the first night we fished and got one hit on a drop and when reeling right felt it po right out of the mouth. Hours later hooked a fish on the grind and had it hung for about 2 minutes before double jobus came free. I blamed on too much drag pressure early on before the hooks worked in but either way I blanked across the trip on flatfalls. Weirdly though ended the trip with 4 bluefin which was the high stick. Only 1 night fish landed for me. Sinker rig with a mack 2 hours before the end of the trip. Managed to catch 3 of the 4 daylight "non kite" bluefin. 1 on fly lined mack and 2 with my freshwater swimbait rod throwing small stuff into the few foamers we pulled on. Felt pretty good getting 2 out of the 3 foamers we tried. my brother got the other daytime fish using a lure I handed him :D
     
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    hhal

    dum vivimus: Venite vivere!
    Dec 16, 2003
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    Hal
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    if it floats, flies or phucks you rent it...
    We might ask one another if this is living while we live, or entrapment by tangents that cannot be justified. Dum vivimus: Venite vivere, indeed.

    Did you notice the thought of ZZZZZ, that glow hooks might mimic
    tentacles. Not sure why I have not seen it yet. I don't doubt its being done. Why not glow paint the hooks so they look like squid tentacles. Instead of trying to be stealth with all those hooks. How about glow hooks as part of enticing a bite?
    I have some and am getting more glow epoxy, green, blue, non glow white powder and clear coat spray, and plan to play with that as well.
    The latin is kinda cobbled from Heinlein's Glory Road... 'While we live, Let us LIVE' is what I am trying to say with it...
    I don't think the glow paint on the hooks will make any appreciable difference... the conjecture is that these fish are grabbing something moving in the water and I really think the glo bit is to hook the fishermen... non glo jigs seem to get bit as well, not sure if they git bit just as well, hard to say as most are fishing with the glo jigs so sample size plays hob with the numbers.
    Perhaps someone might come up with a skirt of glo material that we could experiments with... (you saw that idea here first!) and that might give us a better idea if the fish think they are biting on squid. Not sure how smart BFT actually are...
     
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