MA 9 emergency closure

rrenick65

Almost A Member
May 23, 2010
144
70
Kodiak, AK
Name
Ross
Boat
20' trophy
Definitely happening. We have put 9 to the boat this last week and 8 were hatchery, however the native was a 20 pound fish. Numbers are way of from last year, 8000 fish to date right now compared to 5000 last year at this time. If people didn't keep a lot of barely legal fish it would probably continue on. But hey the rivers have to get there counts. Hopefully A7 picks up
 

Hunter Dan

I Post A Lot But I Can't Edit This
Jun 30, 2011
2,513
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Stauffer
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Dan
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MUGWUMP
Thanks Dan!

I hadn't checked my e-mail yet when i wrote the post above... Sounds like it is a done deal!

Off to Westport for me!
Hey Tom, any chance this early closure might get more folks on board with splitting MA9 in two? This is not the first time hot fishing in the north of 9 have affected us inside of PNP. The Mid HC shakers go all over I know, but if this was about adults as was the coho issue a few years ago it really sucks to be shut off the Issaquah stock piling up on the 9/10 border as we speak. This early shutdown is going to cost me about 2 weeks of decent sales if the coho don't show up soon and it's really hard to sell a WDFW liscence while grinding your teeth over getting the shaft!
 

Fish_kid

The Right Angler
Aug 23, 2010
1,162
402
Kirkland/WA
Name
Tom
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Parker 2120 "F-14"
If that's the case, why is Area 10 included in this? The creel checks in this area have been low for kings so far this season.

.

Patrick - Believe it or not, some of those fish wander around the Sound before finally heading into Hood Canal... the Department has data from coded wire tag returns and from test boat DNA sampling. There's also other weak stocks besides Mid-Hood Canal in Area 10... as an example, Green River isn't making escapement the last couple of years (which is why Elliott Bay is closed this year)...
 

Fish_kid

The Right Angler
Aug 23, 2010
1,162
402
Kirkland/WA
Name
Tom
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Parker 2120 "F-14"
Definitely happening. We have put 9 to the boat this last week and 8 were hatchery, however the native was a 20 pound fish. Numbers are way of from last year, 8000 fish to date right now compared to 5000 last year at this time. If people didn't keep a lot of barely legal fish it would probably continue on. But hey the rivers have to get there counts. Hopefully A7 picks up

Ross - it's not the number of hatchery fish that is the problem... so keeping a 22 incher doesn't impact the management of the fishery... it's about the number if wild fish being encountered...

We all just have to get lucky and have a high mark rate in our fishing... if we could just get a lure that would target only hatchery fish :finger:
 

rrenick65

Almost A Member
May 23, 2010
144
70
Kodiak, AK
Name
Ross
Boat
20' trophy
Well if that's the case how can they tell how many native fish are being encountered? We haven't ran into a fish checker or anyone from fish and game in the last week out there. And i heard they count almost 50 percent of the fish released as fish that won't survive, is this true?
 

millertime1

Almost A Member
Jul 29, 2008
134
0
Lynnwood, Wa, USA
www.salmonforsoldiers.com
Name
Kurt Miller
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21' Trophy 2159 as yet unnamed
What’s really inane about this whole situation is that people will still be fishing coho so they will still be hooking and releasing kings, just now we’ll be releasing wild PLUS hatchery so the mortality rate will increase if anything. Our hatchery to wild ratio ended up about 80% so I’m thinking their stats are skewed. So if mortality rate is the reason it’s closing, then they should close it for ALL salmon fishing, but don't tell them I said that.
 

Glad Wrap

I Post A Lot But I Can't Edit This
Jul 21, 2009
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Scott
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boat whore
What’s really inane about this whole situation is that people will still be fishing coho so they will still be hooking and releasing kings, just now we’ll be releasing wild PLUS hatchery so the mortality rate will increase if anything. Our hatchery to wild ratio ended up about 80% so I’m thinking their stats are skewed. So if mortality rate is the reason it’s closing, then they should close it for ALL salmon fishing, but don't tell them I said that.

okay now take your left or right hand and slap yourself. Hell do it twice, once with each hand.......repeat if needed. Closing down both marine areas would cause a huge uproar and either way everyone knows that there data isn't perfect. They are trying to do what they can to protect the native kings while keeping the areas open for people top fish.

:2gunsfiring_v1:
 

JKIII

FISHNFU
Jul 3, 2010
1,000
1
Mount Vernon, WA
Name
Jim
Boat
18' Alumaweld Intruder Sportjet
Ross - it's not the number of hatchery fish that is the problem... so keeping a 22 incher doesn't impact the management of the fishery... it's about the number if wild fish being encountered...

We all just have to get lucky and have a high mark rate in our fishing... if we could just get a lure that would target only hatchery fish :finger:


Tom, do you know if they are supposed to clip 100% of hatchery fish in Puget SOund? Another thread got me all fired up thinking that they might not clip all hatchery fish, if not, this is inadequate and must stop, it is skewing the science, not in our favor! Also, can we see the supposed data sets that were used to close said fishery? Is it FOIA?
 

Fish_kid

The Right Angler
Aug 23, 2010
1,162
402
Kirkland/WA
Name
Tom
Boat
Parker 2120 "F-14"
Well if that's the case how can they tell how many native fish are being encountered? We haven't ran into a fish checker or anyone from fish and game in the last week out there. And i heard they count almost 50 percent of the fish released as fish that won't survive, is this true?

Ross,

It's all done on computer modelling... you can't count all the fish in the sea, and you can't count all the fishermen as they go to the docks... so you sample and extrapolate... they get info about mark rate from three sources... one is the interviews with anglers at the docks, second is the voluntary trip reports that some of us fill out, and third is results from a test fishing boat, which they feel are the most accurate as it's folks they are paying to fish and record what they encounter. Once they have an encounter rate, they multiply by the number of boats and avg anglers/boat to get their estimates.

On survival rates, the FRAM model uses mortality numbers for each type of fishery that have been agreed to by the State, Feds and Tribes... You really have to have research to convince all three groups if you want to change any of it... I think the mortality rate used for legal sized fish released is something like 20%, but that's from memory. I don't remember on sub-legal fish... I think the number is higher, meaning more of them die from the encounter, but I also think it is discounted because some of the sub-legals wouldn't have made it to adulthood anyways... maybe one of the other Advisors or State Bio's will chime in and help me on the numbers!!!
 

Fish_kid

The Right Angler
Aug 23, 2010
1,162
402
Kirkland/WA
Name
Tom
Boat
Parker 2120 "F-14"
Tom, do you know if they are supposed to clip 100% of hatchery fish in Puget SOund? Another thread got me all fired up thinking that they might not clip all hatchery fish, if not, this is inadequate and must stop, it is skewing the science, not in our favor! Also, can we see the supposed data sets that were used to close said fishery? Is it FOIA?

Jim,

At this point, I think all hatchery production in Puget Sound is marked. I think the Tulalips were holding out a few years ago because they felt they would get more of "their" fish back to their fishery and hatchery if they weren't marked. I know Rep Norm Dicks got funding so the machines are available to mark all hatchery fish in PS, and I also think he helped convince Tulalip to mark as well. If memory serves me, this year or last year was the first year when all returning Tulalip fish should have been marked.

Hatheries DO some research where they DON'T mark small batches of fish as a control group. They can compare the return rate between their marked fish and their unmarked fish and determine if there is a difference. But that's usually small batches like a few thousand fingerlings, not a whole hatchery's production.

On the data about closing Area 9/10, I'll check with the Department to see if they are okay with me releasing it. I don't think it's FOIA or anything. I think they just needed to show it to the Tribal Co-Managers and discuss it before broadcasting it to the world... kind of a courtesy thing.

Hope everybody is out fishing! I'm stuck home doing chores... :finger:
 

Fish_kid

The Right Angler
Aug 23, 2010
1,162
402
Kirkland/WA
Name
Tom
Boat
Parker 2120 "F-14"
What’s really inane about this whole situation is that people will still be fishing coho so they will still be hooking and releasing kings, just now we’ll be releasing wild PLUS hatchery so the mortality rate will increase if anything. Our hatchery to wild ratio ended up about 80% so I’m thinking their stats are skewed. So if mortality rate is the reason it’s closing, then they should close it for ALL salmon fishing, but don't tell them I said that.
Kurt,

We DID talk for a little bit about closing all salmon fishing, but we're trying to find a balance. The Charter fleet would still like to fish, tackle stores would still like to sell tackle... so a complete closure would have impacted those businesses negatively. People would still like the opportunity to get out and chase a fish or two...

We HOPE people will alter their fishing strategy a little bit when targetting silvers instead of chinook and reduce what they encounter... fish shallower, fish faster, fish the rips off-shore, etc... More people will choose to go to Westport or Sekiu... It's not going to eliminate chinook encounters and wild chinook mortaility, but hopefully it reduces it and is a less bitter pill to swallow than a complete closure...
 

Fish_kid

The Right Angler
Aug 23, 2010
1,162
402
Kirkland/WA
Name
Tom
Boat
Parker 2120 "F-14"
Okay... So I've checked in, and it is okay for me to share the data that we had in front of us when we gave the Department our advice on closing Area 9/10...

Forecast Encounters for the fishery:

Type....... LM ......LU ....SM ....SU ....Total
Area 09 ....5100.. 1050.. 8535.. 1715.. 16400
Area 10 ....2792.. 1171.. 5885.. 1895.. 11743

Combined. 7892.. 2221. 14420. 3610.. 28143

L = legal, S = sub-legal, M = marked, and U = unmarked

Actual Numbers

Type........... LM ......LU .....SM ...SU .....Total
Area 09...... 7284.. 2428... 1821. 3237... 14770
Area 10....... 2748....229....3092....916.....6985

Combined.. 10032.. 2657.. 4913.. 4153.. 21755

And

Estimated Encounters if Open Thru 8/31

Type....... LM ......LU ....SM ....SU ....Total
Area 09 ....8234.. 2745.. 2058.. 3659.. 16696
Area 10 ....3965.. 0330.. 4460.. 1322.. 10077

Combined. 12199..3075. 6519. 4981.. 26774

So the numbers that mattered the most are the expected/modelled wild fish encounters - the 2221 and 3610 - 5831 total versus the expected 3075 and 4981 - 8056 total - approx 50% more wild fish encounters than planned in the model.

Hope this helps folks understand what we were looking at.

Sorry about the tables... tried to use .dots to get things to line up right...
 

chadminnick

Member
Feb 24, 2011
500
0
Bothell, WA USA
Name
Mr. Trouble
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28' Bayliner
Thanks for this, Tom. A lot of guys just assume the DFW are a bunch of anti-hunting, anti-fishing hacks who like to screw up our recreational plans. But the truth is they do make an honest effort to manage the resource for everyone. Thanks for these numbers. They really help to explain it!
 

blackvelvet

old and gray
Jun 19, 2010
2,849
228
slug and duck country
Name
BV
Boat
One that works for me
If we want to look at the Tribes with a stright face and ask them to stop when they exceed the model projections, we have to do the same. Closing chinook was the right thing to do.
Ask the tribes to stop ???? Really ????

:2gunsfiring_v1:The tribes have a quota, then they have ceremonial fishing and substinence fishing......guess that about covers 365 days a year.
 

BigLing35

Newbie
May 3, 2011
48
0
Mukilteo, WA
Name
Curt
Boat
First Mate on the S.S. Sheiss
Anybody know the fine for keeping a hatchery fish right now? I'd rather write WDFW a check then give the fish to the tribes...

You don’t have to worry that. WDFD has confirmed there is not one last hatchery fish in Puget Sound and we need to save the 13 wild fish that are left because apparently every time you release a wild fish it dies!

You wait all season and here is how these executive decisions are made... :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff: :puff:

~ BigLing
 

Chef Patrick

I Catch 'em and Cook 'em
Feb 24, 2011
568
200
Seattle/WA/USA
bait2plate.com
Name
Patrick
Boat
20' Weldcraft Rebel 202
Tom, I for one appreciate all that you and the WDFW do to protect our fisheries, and I don't want to be another guy enjoying the fruits of your labor while complaining that we are being screwed.
That being said I do have one point that I wish could have been addressed differently.
If I'm reading this right, according to the numbers you posted, Area 10 was forecast for 3066 wild fish (both legal & sublegal) encounters. The actual number was 1145 and even the projected number through the 31st would have been 1652. So clearly it was the Area 9 wild fish encounters that went way beyond the forecast. And from what I've heard, it was mostly concentrated in the very Northern part of Area 9.
I know this is easier said than done, but I wish the Area 9 situation would have been addressed sooner, by reducing the limit or suspending the season there in time so that the Area 10 didn't have to pay the price for Mid-Channel Bank's success.

As an Area 10 fisherman who makes a point of making no travel plans from mid-July through the end of August, and incurs some expense to moor his boat in Seattle so that I can get out for quick trips when work allows, losing those last 2 weeks of the season, especially when the bite really had yet to heat up for us, was kind of heartbreaking.

Again, I know there were reasons for handling this the way it was, and I'm a firm believer that protecting the future of the fishery is priority number one. It's just that when we were in the midst of a quiet king season down here, and you've been waiting for the fish to move into the area in numbers; being told you have to stop because you've caught too many is a bit of a bitter pill to swallow.


Patrick
 

Glad Wrap

I Post A Lot But I Can't Edit This
Jul 21, 2009
3,546
575
Tacoma, WA
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Scott
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boat whore
Tom, I for one appreciate all that you and the WDFW do to protect our fisheries, and I don't want to be another guy enjoying the fruits of your labor while complaining that we are being screwed.
That being said I do have one point that I wish could have been addressed differently.
If I'm reading this right, according to the numbers you posted, Area 10 was forecast for 3066 wild fish (both legal & sublegal) encounters. The actual number was 1145 and even the projected number through the 31st would have been 1652. So clearly it was the Area 9 wild fish encounters that went way beyond the forecast. And from what I've heard, it was mostly concentrated in the very Northern part of Area 9.
I know this is easier said than done, but I wish the Area 9 situation would have been addressed sooner, by reducing the limit or suspending the season there in time so that the Area 10 didn't have to pay the price for Mid-Channel Bank's success.

As an Area 10 fisherman who makes a point of making no travel plans from mid-July through the end of August, and incurs some expense to moor his boat in Seattle so that I can get out for quick trips when work allows, losing those last 2 weeks of the season, especially when the bite really had yet to heat up for us, was kind of heartbreaking.

Again, I know there were reasons for handling this the way it was, and I'm a firm believer that protecting the future of the fishery is priority number one. It's just that when we were in the midst of a quiet king season down here, and you've been waiting for the fish to move into the area in numbers; being told you have to stop because you've caught too many is a bit of a bitter pill to swallow.


Patrick

My guess is because if they close 9 then that will push a lot of those fisherman into 10. Making the models numbers go up and over the current projected amount.

Don't see any other reason than that. I was wondering the same thing though.:hali_olutta:
 

BigLing35

Newbie
May 3, 2011
48
0
Mukilteo, WA
Name
Curt
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First Mate on the S.S. Sheiss
Ok, but on a serious note I feel really bad for everyone in area 10 and inner area 9. It’s a shame it’s over before it even got hot. Especially for everyone that has really been looking forward to some good fishing and can’t make it out of town to fish elsewhere.

Who gets our remaining quota? So many questions...

~ BigLing
 

blackmouther

10%er during Salmon Season
Jun 29, 2009
2,606
390
Mount Vernon Washington
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Fowlmotuher
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Shopping
Just think about this one for a minute. We just got home from bamfield bc. While trolling on the big bank we were catching and releasing many 2 year old clipped blackmouth. It was relentless and we ended up moving to different grounds to avoid them. This is whats troubling, the amount of money that folks pay to fish with guides and puker boats is alot so people were forced to keep barely legal fish to at least bring something home. I seen boats killing 20" blackmouth almost all day long and with the amount of marked fish we caught dont get too excited 2 years from now for a red hot season or one at all. 100 boats on the big bank average 3 per boat thats 600 barely legals a day for 30 days. Thats 18000 a month with an 75% clipped rate that we seen. Just think about it SCARY to say the least. Hope im wrong but wow when you think about it
 

Hunter Dan

I Post A Lot But I Can't Edit This
Jun 30, 2011
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MUGWUMP
Just think about this one for a minute. We just got home from bamfield bc. While trolling on the big bank we were catching and releasing many 2 year old clipped blackmouth. It was relentless and we ended up moving to different grounds to avoid them. This is whats troubling, the amount of money that folks pay to fish with guides and puker boats is alot so people were forced to keep barely legal fish to at least bring something home. I seen boats killing 20" blackmouth almost all day long and with the amount of marked fish we caught dont get too excited 2 years from now for a red hot season or one at all. 100 boats on the big bank average 3 per boat thats 600 barely legals a day for 30 days. Thats 18000 a month with an 75% clipped rate that we seen. Just think about it SCARY to say the least. Hope im wrong but wow when you think about it

The next Pacific Salmon Management treaty needs to address the amount of U.S. chinook being caught in Canada!