Let the debate begin...watch

Discussion in 'Washington Fishing Reports' started by Glad Wrap, Jul 9, 2014.

  1. WEDOCQ

    WEDOCQ Member

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    I think the police are being put into a tough situation here. Had this been a lunatic on the verge of a rampage like we see everyday on the news, and the police did nothing, the public would be going ballistic. I understand that people make these videos to show that the police don't always follow the rules (and/or constitutional rights), but as a gun owner, he's preaching to the choir. We already know this. Non-gun owners look at these videos and say, "See, we need more gun control laws. That guy shouldn't be walking down the street with a gun like that..."
    -Shawn
     
  2. Clockwork

    Clockwork I've posted enough I should edit this section

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    This was a test and the cops failed it. extremely unproffessional. initially Rawlins was very professional but you can see what happens when they got confused and frustrated. Start talking like "if you can find a number on it let me know" "Im glad you can read" "if youd stop talking that'd be great" and then tossing all his live ammo all over the ground. Not behavior from someone in control of themselves and the situation.

    and how bad did Hernandes want to blast that guy?
     
  3. blackvelvet

    blackvelvet old and gray

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    if a guy with an assault rifle is walking thru my neighborhood, I would expect him to get stopped and questioned by LEO. At least make sure he has a permit, cause that's the law......and they always take temporary control of firearms in any situation like this one, until they sort things out.

    funny how its called a "concealed weapons permit", yet it includes firearms that are so massive that they cannot be concealed.

    my hats off to all LEO, they have a mostly thankless job that pays shitty and could get them in a body bag at any moment.
     
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  4. Glad Wrap

    Glad Wrap Well-Known "Member"

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    Well in Washington it's call a Concealed Pistol License (CPL) and the state did that to only cover pistols. Now this is an open carry state, meaning you don't need a permit to carry a weapon openly.

    But I do agree about one should expect some sort of contact with a LEO if they are walking around with a long gun.
     
  5. rk52

    rk52 Well-Known "Member"

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    Years ago I walked two blocks to Warshall's in downtown Seattle with a bolt action rifle to have some work done. It was carried with the bolt in my pocket and nobody said a word. Ah the old days......

    Dumb shit never should have carried his rights on his sleeve. Got what he was looking for. And as CC armed citizen it would be hard not to approach him and ask what the fuck he thought he was doing. Can I see your ID to confirm you are not a felon? That was perfect....
     
  6. Glad Wrap

    Glad Wrap Well-Known "Member"

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    yeah the old days, but you didn't have your rifle slung across your chest. Plus you had a reason to be carrying it down the street, not just because you can..
     
  7. tambs

    tambs Yo BD! Color Screens-Invented Mid '50s. Jus sayin.

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    The only plausible use of a handgun is to fight your way back to your rifle. In any environment.
     
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  8. tambs

    tambs Yo BD! Color Screens-Invented Mid '50s. Jus sayin.

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    I have to disagree. I'd guess they did that to give them a minute or two to make a tactical retreat. They certainly aren't in the immediate vicinity when he finishes topping off the mag with his last "bullet".
     
  9. Chris Axtell

    Chris Axtell BigDaddyAx

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    What this fucktard may not have taken into consideration was that the mall shooting in Portland occurred less than 30 miles away. He could have been in the "Fun Center" shooting kids in 30 seconds. Other concerned citizens and the business called the cops. The LEO's were correct in trying to ascertain his name and mental condition to make sure he was not a threat. Did he have the "right" to do what he did? Yes. Did he have the "right" not to give the officers his name? Yes. But being an uncooperative asshole will not get you anywhere. He did this for attention and to stir the pot. Selfish, stupid, and frankly a waste of resources having so many officers there. If shit went down elsewhere, and LE was to underhanded to responded, then that is on his hands. I would prefer this jerkoff just get "Small Cock" tattooed on his forehead instead of wasting everyone's time.

    This type of shit hurts gun advocates, more than it helps. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

    PS - If I do get some Beiber marks for this post (likely), I'll take the part that hooks up with Selena Gomez, not the auto-tuned white chocolate pseudo hip hop shit he churns out.
     
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  10. Ugly Bayliner

    Ugly Bayliner I've posted enough I should edit this section

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    I don't think you'll get Biebered, in fact I bet most agree with you. On the one hand, this shows how LE treats everyone as a criminal first and assumes because you are legally carrying a rifle that you are a criminal. He chose the AR15 because it has the evil reputation nowadays for maximum effect. A wood stocked bolt action .22 long rifle might not have garnered so much attention, especially because you can't find ammo for them these days. So yes, cops profile, it's their job and I'm glad they do so.

    On the other hand, this brings more bad light on to gun laws and infuriates the liberal gun law activists. Only an idiot would shed light on how easy it is to carry a rifle down the street in any neighborhood, which causes a knee jerk reaction from all the soccer moms to call for stricter gun laws. The smart gun owners do not publicize what they own, you keep it quiet. We have enough restrictions and anti-gun laws at it is - don't stir the pot and bring up the subject anymore than the deranged idiots who shoot up schools already do.

    Stunts like this do nothing to help the cause of legal gun rights in my opinion. We all know that rarely do the people ever gain liberty, we can only slow the rate it gets taken away, PS crab catch daily limits come to mind. The guberment only taketh away, it never gives back!
     
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  11. Tues

    Tues Not my job...

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    I conceal. A lot.
    I open carry. A little. Normally, when I shoot at the range or desert and have my holster on my belt that day.

    Both times with a side arm. 99% of the time (I live in Arizona) it's no big deal.

    I have never thought one time in my life to take a long gun with me to the store or out in public anywhere; although it's my right. It just doesn't make sense. That's just me.

    Now for the video. OK, the guy is making a point. Dumbass, yes, but its not unlawful. Once it was established dumbass was not breaking any rules or laws, LEO should have let him be. He was trolling, like I troll you dumbasses. I'm not picking sides here, but at the end of the day, this guy is causing more problems than its worth but in the same breath he is also exposing the over-reach of LEO.

    Another reason why I believe its everyone's right to conceal a weapon in public. The issue is personal and family safety. I just think it should be limited in some fashion. i.e not rocket launcher on your shoulder.
     
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  12. Chisow

    Chisow Member

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    The guy was an extreme douche who was looking for attention.
    What kind of Sane person in today's society walks down the street with a Loaded AR 15 and expects to not be questioned. Now the police were 100% in there legal rights to stop and detain him. He was a public nuisance and they had been called out to identify. That is the key right there.

    ID laws. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to reveal their identity when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as “stop-and-identify” statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.

    I would love to see the other side of the coin. Those officers have no idea if this man has just committed a crime and is now fleeing or out of his mind. The first officer who made contact was very professional and courteous. He didn't raise his voice and didn't get agitated. His partner was a wreck and her finger was itching.. We the tax payers pay these people to protect us and our rights. As an active duty Soldier if I saw this guy walking near a parking lot with a store and parked cars I would most likely draw my pistol call the cops and move my family to a protected area. But at no time would I assume that a person walking in broad daylight in a public area was not up to no good. Or was just out for a stroll with his AR. I only remember strolling with and AR in the streets of Baghdad and thanking god every day I was there that this type of shit was not happening in the United States.

    1. Guy was a dumb ASS should of presented ID when asked. You are not required to present if your just walking down the street and you feel your being illegally detained. However this guy has a loaded gun and is asking for problems.

    2. Officer 1 great job. Officer 2 Female with Shotgun. Good job of keeping gun down and protecting your partner. Keeping eye on target and obviously she was very stressed and most likely first time she has ever had to pull shotty from the car on a suspect. Not a good job on communication skills but you can see in her face and hands her adrenaline is flowing in overdrive and she was high strung. This officer is also the only one that actually said the right thing in one area when he asked "excuse me officer are you detaining me?" Reply was something like we are right now until we can establish your ID and if a crime has been committed. (More on this later)

    3. Third officer other female she did nothing wrong what so ever. She came up as back up when officer 1 walked away. She then showed her name tag when asked her name.

    4. Obviously subject was trying to provoke in speech and his I'm smarter than you cops attitude. This lead to cop telling him he would no longer be treated as a law biding citizen and that his actions and speech could bring on a more severe reaction from police.

    5.Officer acted unprofessionally and stripped his magazine of all rounds and left them lying on the ground. Then throwing his magazine down and saying he was free to go. subject should of shut his mouth at this point and walked away with his weapon.

    6. Subject then trying to leave and here is where it gets confusing to the uneducated. What the cops were doing the entire time was running what legally they could do to apprehend this guy. I feel they acted a bit too soon. I will explain. I am sure department lawyers were acting in background and were saying if he refuses to ID himself we can not let him just walk away as how much worse would it of been had he walked around corner and then started going Semi Auto on passing cars, children, pedestrians. How would you all feel then? It would turn into HOLY SHIT THE COPS HAD HIM WHY DID THEY LET HIM GO??? HE HAD A FUCKING MACHINE GUN!!

    Here is how the cops in my humble opinion messed up on the take down. They should of allowed him to go to his car. Once he put the gun in the car and was ready to enter you then block the car and politely walk over and ask for ID. At this point he could of been detained on reasonable suspicion that he may of committed a crime and failed to provide ID when asked by law enforcement. They then are only taking him into protective custody until they can establish his true identity.

    Washington Law
    (1) Except as expressly exempted by this chapter, it is a traffic infraction and not a misdemeanor under RCW 46.20.005 if a person:

    (a) Drives any motor vehicle upon a highway in this state without a valid driver's license issued to Washington residents under this chapter in his or her possession;

    ARREST - POLICE OFFICERS - CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF ACCUSED PERSONS - ADMISSIBILITY OF EVIDENCE.

    (1) The provisions of the 4th Amendment to the United States Constitution are applicable to any detention of a person for investigation of suspected criminal conduct irrespective of whether or not the detention amounts to an arrest or not; however, such a temporary detention is not a violation of the 4th Amendment if the officers acted upon specific and articulable facts which would "warrant a man of reasonable caution in the belief that the action taken was appropriate"; in other words, the officers may act on something less than "probable cause," but they may not act simply on the basis of good faith based upon nothing more substantial than "inarticulate hunches."

    (2) A police officer who has temporarily detained a person for investigation of suspected criminal conduct without making a formal arrest is not required to warn the detained person of his constitutional rights under Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 486, 16 L.Ed. 2d 694, 86 S.Ct. 1602 (1966), until the initial suspicions which led the officer to make the "stop" are transformed into "probable cause" to believe the person confronted has committed an offense or until the suspect has a reasonable basis in fact to believe that he is under arrest (i.e., in custody of the police and not free to leave); at either of these points, the required warnings must be given in order to insure the admissibility in evidence of any incriminating statements thereafter made by the suspect.

    Sorry long winded but some things just need to be said sometimes.
     
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  13. Peteb

    Peteb newbie my ass

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    James, first thank you for your service and second thank you for IMO, a great analysis of the whole f'd up ordeal.
     
  14. Elkfins

    Elkfins Ungrateful Prick

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    This guy is a douche and in the long run, his actions will do more harm to our rights than good. The cop's clearly pressed the issue too far and were also douche's after they returned the gun to the guy.

    Now I strongly believe in our right to open carry and conceal carry but personally, I rarely ever open carry unless I am going to/from the range or out in the woods for one simple reason...
    When the maniac with the gun comes into the place and starts shooting, robs the bank or whatever the fuck his evil intent is, it is likely that his first and foremost target is going to be the guy that has the gun and can stop him before he achieves his goal. Personally, I choose to not be that first target. I don't want him to know that I am carrying. I want to engage him on my terms... like when he's distracted by the guy that is open carrying, has his back turned or is focused on someone/something else. And I'll bet I can draw my concealed weapon as fast as anyone can draw their open carried weapon if needed.
     
  15. wils

    wils lazy-ass well known "member"

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    I initially only read the article. I watched the video yesterday and saw what these types of videos usually show (and/or DONT show):

    1. nothing is shown of the beginning of the "incident" when he was in the restaurant and was asked to leave by the security guard.
    2. the video was obviously edited before being publicized.

    IMO the cops responded better than has been presented by some of the posters here. what was the female officer supposed to do when an idiot is walking around with a loaded AK15 intentionally trying to provoke the cops? Offer him a blow-job?
     
  16. Carl

    Carl Bridesmaid,,,,,,,Again

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    I've felt and stated for years that the biggest threat to us gun owners are idiot/nut job gun owners; not left wingers.
    Now the majority in the middle will swing to the stricter gun law lobby camp and open carry will be restricted/illegal.
    This happened a few years ago here in SoCal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2014
  17. archy99

    archy99 Member

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    Lots of good comments on a topic that could have easily gone to shit in a hurry.

    There was clearly a range of ability and experience exhibited by the police, in response to his efforts to elicit the wrong response. To me, somebody in the PD should note Hernandez' response and provide some additional training in stressful situation. She looks like a cornered, feral animal that way she's strung so tight.

    In my mind it's all about context. Guns are tools meant for certain tasks, and they can do those tasks very well. I have a axe that does it's own set of tasks. Perfectly legal to carry it down the street, but if I have it on my shoulder while I'm shopping for jeans at the mall, it's well out of context (unless say the jeans store is next to a saw shop) and while I shouldn't be arrested for doing it, I dearly hope that people notice I look like a potential risk and watch me closely. Part of being a community.

    As noted by many others, this guy had a clear agenda, he was looking for a specific response, and he eventually got it...and then acted incredulous that it was happening. Initial contact was decent and within reason, despite his button-pushing efforts, but it did fall apart a bit, and it seemed to get person al some point.

    Not good PR for us non-douchey, non-fucktardy, want-to-pass-the-rights-onto-the-kids, responsible gun owner types.
     
  18. Tues

    Tues Not my job...

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    Like you only quoted two sentences from my post? I see what you did there................
     
  19. wils

    wils lazy-ass well known "member"

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    Like yeah. that was the only part I wanted to speak to. :)
     

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