Knot Numbers, disappointing

locvetter

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Mar 24, 2015
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Loc Vetter
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Loc Vetter Casting
Summary statement: I am going with San Diego Jam, unless I really need stealth, then Spangler.

Too long a story:

So I promised somebody I would post these numbers. I wanted to look at numbers for my top four terminal knots, and I added the Erwin, as I had never played with it. These were to be in 130# Seaguar Blue -- but after I had tied them all, as I was putting the coil back in it's pouch, I realized that it was Premier. Oops.

Five of each.
Other end of each sample crimped around a brass thimble
Used the rings I had soldered as practice for ringing hooks
Randomly run through my break-it machine

Here is a picture of the samples:

5 knot specimens.JPG

The thing that looks like fraying on the crimp to crimp using the Jinkai "I" (shorter) is a Labrador hair.

Numbers were way lower than I expected them to be!
Here is a JPEG of the spreadsheet I used (Not close to Atuna level)
5knottrial.jpg

All numbers are low. I am here putting pictures of the five knots:
San Diego Jam
SDJAM.JPG


3-turn Uni
3 turn uni.JPG


Trilene
Trilene.JPG


Spangler
Spangler.JPG


Erwin
Erwin.JPG


Here are videos of how I tied them -- not for those easily bored, but hoping someone will point out why my numbers are so low. These are NOT instructional videos, but intended only to illustrate how I tied the knots being tested:

3-Turn Uni:

San Diego Jam:

Erwin:

Trilene:

Spangler:

Thanks for your help with suggestions on why the numbers are so low. Scale is calibrated.
 

dtf

Well-Known "Member"
Apr 16, 2004
885
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David
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22ft, Pursuit
A lot of good work there, thanks.
Can only speak for the three turn uni, I think you will have better results by tightening the knot using the tag in to tighten, not the mainline.
 
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Cubeye

I've posted enough I should edit this section
Jan 26, 2007
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Kub
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17' Gregor
Summary statement: I am going with San Diego Jam, unless I really need stealth, then Spangler.

Too long a story:

So I promised somebody I would post these numbers. I wanted to look at numbers for my top four terminal knots, and I added the Erwin, as I had never played with it. These were to be in 130# Seaguar Blue -- but after I had tied them all, as I was putting the coil back in it's pouch, I realized that it was Premier. Oops.

Five of each.
Other end of each sample crimped around a brass thimble
Used the rings I had soldered as practice for ringing hooks
Randomly run through my break-it machine

Here is a picture of the samples:

View attachment 982542
The thing that looks like fraying on the crimp to crimp using the Jinkai "I" (shorter) is a Labrador hair.

Numbers were way lower than I expected them to be!
Here is a JPEG of the spreadsheet I used (Not close to Atuna level)
View attachment 982536
All numbers are low. I am here putting pictures of the five knots:
San Diego Jam
View attachment 982537

3-turn Uni
View attachment 982538

Trilene
View attachment 982539

Spangler
View attachment 982540

Erwin
View attachment 982541

Here are videos of how I tied them -- not for those easily bored, but hoping someone will point out why my numbers are so low. These are NOT instructional videos, but intended only to illustrate how I tied the knots being tested:

3-Turn Uni:

San Diego Jam:

Erwin:

Trilene:

Spangler:

Thanks for your help with suggestions on why the numbers are so low. Scale is calibrated.
Lots of work. Thanks for posting. Of all the tests that you made, did the "crimp" end of the test specimen fail? I'm asking about the Knot to Crimp specimens. Not the Crimp to Crimp specimens.

Sorry, I reread your spread sheet and noticed that one crimp did fail.

Consistent low test results could indicate that your testing protocol needs to be refined.
 
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JohnnieB

SelFishAddiction
May 16, 2016
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HereandThere
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Unknown limits
I didn't realize the Erwin is simply a Sandiego that goes through the eye twice, I've been tying the SD like that for a while now. But it's kinda weird to me that the single loop around the eye with the sd gets a higher break??? Seems all the results are very low though...humm... can you do a similar comparison with some different brands?
 
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Bill W

tunaholic
Jan 12, 2006
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The 3 turn uni is very important how to barrel the knot. Pull the main line and the tag end close to each other on a hold fast at the same time. The barrel will roll over the main line and tag end then with the tag running parallel with the main line.

Post #25 shows the picture of how it works. See the figure 8 look on the loose barrel. Now pull both the main line with one hand and the tag with the other, but with both hands close to each other.

https://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/threads/wind-on-leader-and-fluorocarbon-questions.698298/page-2#post-4675215
 
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yessokk

I've posted enough I should edit this section
Sep 18, 2006
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Walt
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11 ft Sears W/Duel 5.2hp
Your results are ,,,, as you say,,, "lower then expected".
First, be advised that the Seguar Premier is an IGFA rated line. Meaning that the line has no over test like standard line. It's ABS must not be more then the labeled strength of the line. Second, fluorocarbons knot strength is significantly less then monofilament. Those two points alone can account for about a 25% reduction in expected testing strength. So very good knot testing results in the
90 - 100 lb. range would be acceptable.

The most potential for improvement is the SDJ knot.
Would respectfully suggest the following.
1. Increase the number of wraps to 5 or 6.
2. Make sure that the tag end that goes through the loop at the top is going in the same direction as the standing line. This is VERY IMPORTANT. The knot tied in the video shows the standing line and the tag end going in opposite directions through the top loop.
3. Cinch the knot down very slowly , Snapping the line down creates heat which weakens knots significantly. Even if it is wet. This goes for all knots.
4. Leave the small loop that is created when cinched down. Do not pull on the tag end to remove it. ( there is a reason for this but too much to type) About half of it can be removed if you must but no more.

If you do the above please post up . Would be very keen to see the results .

My .37 cents worth for your consideration.
Walt
 

Luke

Uses alot of bait!
Aug 19, 2006
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Your results are ,,,, as you say,,, "lower then expected".
First, be advised that the Seguar Premier is an IGFA rated line. Meaning that the line has no over test like standard line. It's ABS must not be more then the labeled strength of the line. Second, fluorocarbons knot strength is significantly less then monofilament. Those two points alone can account for about a 25% reduction in expected testing strength. So very good knot testing results in the
90 - 100 lb. range would be acceptable.

The most potential for improvement is the SDJ knot.
Would respectfully suggest the following.
1. Increase the number of wraps to 5 or 6.
2. Make sure that the tag end that goes through the loop at the top is going in the same direction as the standing line. This is VERY IMPORTANT. The knot tied in the video shows the standing line and the tag end going in opposite directions through the top loop.
3. Cinch the knot down very slowly , Snapping the line down creates heat which weakens knots significantly. Even if it is wet. This goes for all knots.
4. Leave the small loop that is created when cinched down. Do not pull on the tag end to remove it. ( there is a reason for this but too much to type) About half of it can be removed if you must but no more.

If you do the above please post up . Would be very keen to see the results .

My .37 cents worth for your consideration.
Walt
Walt’s input on the SD Jam knot is spot on......a few more turns and the tag end needs to be parallel to the main line, not perpendicular. Those simple changes should increase the strength. I have been tying that knot since I was a kid. My dad screwed a ring into our old plum tree in the backyard and he had me practice that knot for days. When tied right very, very strong.

Loc......thank you for sharing.
 
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spongehead

"ONE FISH AT A TIME"
Sep 12, 2010
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Maria
Hmmm id like to see longer lengths maybe ur damaging line during crimping? Do U burn the tag of crimp end? Heat does affect strength its just plastic really. The way i test knots are whats available to my meager means. I do head to head comparisons of each knot and go to town with my floor jack arm. I find the double SD the best(i use wherever stealth in not needed) then a modified miller(which i use). I find the springer splanger likes to work itself free probably my poor knot technique. Thanks Loc for your time hardwork and generous shares. OG bloodydecker rules!
 
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SouthBayKiller

I've posted enough I should edit this section
Mar 27, 2003
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Great work. Couple critiques I have are you don’t know what the true ABS of the line is so your percentages are probably skewed lower than they really are. Mainly since all tests failed low this possibly suggests a method error. Either way it’s more work than I’ve done and I appreciate the effort and information. Thank you!
 
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locvetter

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Mar 24, 2015
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Loc Vetter
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Loc Vetter Casting
Consistent low test results could indicate that your testing protocol needs to be refined.
I could not agree more. Gotta do some stewing on how to control more variables. Need better wetting before tightening, for sure.

I was actually more troubled by the inconsistency (standard dev.)than the overall lowness.

Also, as I mentioned, I was using Premier, which is thinner than the blue, which I believe is why the crimps, LI's, were not as strong as they would have been had I used the next smaller size.

Thanks again!
 

locvetter

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Mar 24, 2015
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Loc Vetter
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Loc Vetter Casting
That's not how I learned to tie the Spangler. Or Springer as John Collins describes it. There's a major difference in how John ties is, study the video starting at 2:53. I settled on this knot as the best one I ever used on big fish.

Basil,
As you know John Collins refers to the knot in that 2014 video as the Springer, but most agree he was not remembering the passenger's name correctly. The difference between what he is doing and what is in Jeff Burroughs illustration is that Jeff goes through the loop created by the first loop.

Johns technique is easier to tie, and I am pleased to hear it must be strong, if you are using it. I have not tested the Basil/Collins version, but will when my fingers recover from the tying yesterday.

Thanks so much for you ongoing interest in making us all better!
 

locvetter

Well-Known "Member"
Mar 24, 2015
544
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Loc Vetter
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Loc Vetter Casting
A lot of good work there, thanks.
Can only speak for the three turn uni, I think you will have better results by tightening the knot using the tag in to tighten, not the mainline.
You are the second with that comment, the other being in a conversation. Going to do that!
 

locvetter

Well-Known "Member"
Mar 24, 2015
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Loc Vetter
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Loc Vetter Casting
Great work. Couple critiques I have are you don’t know what the true ABS of the line is so your percentages are probably skewed lower than they really are. Mainly since all tests failed low this possibly suggests a method error. Either way it’s more work than I’ve done and I appreciate the effort and information. Thank you!
I wish I had a way to test ABS. The fixtures needed to hold the line such that the ends are not the weak point are VERY expensive, and belong on testing machines like Instron and MTS.

I need to keep in mind that i am just trying to make the best choice and technique for fishing.
 

5-20

Poseidon Group's Back Up Trident Thrower
Jan 20, 2011
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5-20
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L2 Fish
Noticed the comment about the 3 turn uni knot not exactly looking clean. That was my thought too.

For those recommending more turns with the San Diego knot — why? I personally tie it with three or four turns with thick line (maybe even #40 or #50 sometimes) that does not cinch up well. I feel like that gives me the most clean and reliable knots and my results have been just fine.