Knot Numbers, disappointing

Dexter Outdoors

locvetter

Member
  • Mar 24, 2015
    596
    1,017
    71
    Name
    Loc Vetter
    Boat
    Loc Vetter Casting
    Summary statement: I am going with San Diego Jam, unless I really need stealth, then Spangler.

    Too long a story:

    So I promised somebody I would post these numbers. I wanted to look at numbers for my top four terminal knots, and I added the Erwin, as I had never played with it. These were to be in 130# Seaguar Blue -- but after I had tied them all, as I was putting the coil back in it's pouch, I realized that it was Premier. Oops.

    Five of each.
    Other end of each sample crimped around a brass thimble
    Used the rings I had soldered as practice for ringing hooks
    Randomly run through my break-it machine

    Here is a picture of the samples:

    5 knot specimens.JPG

    The thing that looks like fraying on the crimp to crimp using the Jinkai "I" (shorter) is a Labrador hair.

    Numbers were way lower than I expected them to be!
    Here is a JPEG of the spreadsheet I used (Not close to Atuna level)
    5knottrial.jpg

    All numbers are low. I am here putting pictures of the five knots:
    San Diego Jam
    SDJAM.JPG


    3-turn Uni
    3 turn uni.JPG


    Trilene
    Trilene.JPG


    Spangler
    Spangler.JPG


    Erwin
    Erwin.JPG


    Here are videos of how I tied them -- not for those easily bored, but hoping someone will point out why my numbers are so low. These are NOT instructional videos, but intended only to illustrate how I tied the knots being tested:

    3-Turn Uni:

    San Diego Jam:

    Erwin:

    Trilene:

    Spangler:

    Thanks for your help with suggestions on why the numbers are so low. Scale is calibrated.
     
    Upvote 0

    dtf

    I Should Upgrade My Account
    Apr 16, 2004
    1,084
    532
    So. Bay Ca
    Name
    David
    Boat
    22ft, Pursuit
    A lot of good work there, thanks.
    Can only speak for the three turn uni, I think you will have better results by tightening the knot using the tag in to tighten, not the mainline.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: locvetter and dh515
    Upvote 0

    Cubeye

    I Post A Lot But I Can't Edit This
    Jan 26, 2007
    3,779
    2,851
    Los Angeles
    Name
    Kub
    Boat
    17' Gregor
    Summary statement: I am going with San Diego Jam, unless I really need stealth, then Spangler.

    Too long a story:

    So I promised somebody I would post these numbers. I wanted to look at numbers for my top four terminal knots, and I added the Erwin, as I had never played with it. These were to be in 130# Seaguar Blue -- but after I had tied them all, as I was putting the coil back in it's pouch, I realized that it was Premier. Oops.

    Five of each.
    Other end of each sample crimped around a brass thimble
    Used the rings I had soldered as practice for ringing hooks
    Randomly run through my break-it machine

    Here is a picture of the samples:

    View attachment 982542
    The thing that looks like fraying on the crimp to crimp using the Jinkai "I" (shorter) is a Labrador hair.

    Numbers were way lower than I expected them to be!
    Here is a JPEG of the spreadsheet I used (Not close to Atuna level)
    View attachment 982536
    All numbers are low. I am here putting pictures of the five knots:
    San Diego Jam
    View attachment 982537

    3-turn Uni
    View attachment 982538

    Trilene
    View attachment 982539

    Spangler
    View attachment 982540

    Erwin
    View attachment 982541

    Here are videos of how I tied them -- not for those easily bored, but hoping someone will point out why my numbers are so low. These are NOT instructional videos, but intended only to illustrate how I tied the knots being tested:

    3-Turn Uni:

    San Diego Jam:

    Erwin:

    Trilene:

    Spangler:

    Thanks for your help with suggestions on why the numbers are so low. Scale is calibrated.
    Lots of work. Thanks for posting. Of all the tests that you made, did the "crimp" end of the test specimen fail? I'm asking about the Knot to Crimp specimens. Not the Crimp to Crimp specimens.

    Sorry, I reread your spread sheet and noticed that one crimp did fail.

    Consistent low test results could indicate that your testing protocol needs to be refined.
     
    Last edited:
    Upvote 0

    JohnnieB

    SelFishAddiction
    May 16, 2016
    1,465
    774
    HereandThere
    Name
    JB
    Boat
    Unknown limits
    I didn't realize the Erwin is simply a Sandiego that goes through the eye twice, I've been tying the SD like that for a while now. But it's kinda weird to me that the single loop around the eye with the sd gets a higher break??? Seems all the results are very low though...humm... can you do a similar comparison with some different brands?
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: spongehead
    Upvote 0

    Bill W

    tunaholic
  • Jan 12, 2006
    5,660
    7,315
    67
    Chino Hills, Ca.
    Name
    Bill Walsh
    Boat
    Red Rooster
    The 3 turn uni is very important how to barrel the knot. Pull the main line and the tag end close to each other on a hold fast at the same time. The barrel will roll over the main line and tag end then with the tag running parallel with the main line.

    Post #25 shows the picture of how it works. See the figure 8 look on the loose barrel. Now pull both the main line with one hand and the tag with the other, but with both hands close to each other.

    https://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/t...rocarbon-questions.698298/page-2#post-4675215
     
    Last edited:
    Upvote 0

    yessokk

    Luck favors the well prepared.
    Sep 18, 2006
    1,250
    1,903
    Costa Mesa, Cailf
    Name
    Walt
    Boat
    11 ft Sears W/Duel 5.2hp
    Your results are ,,,, as you say,,, "lower then expected".
    First, be advised that the Seguar Premier is an IGFA rated line. Meaning that the line has no over test like standard line. It's ABS must not be more then the labeled strength of the line. Second, fluorocarbons knot strength is significantly less then monofilament. Those two points alone can account for about a 25% reduction in expected testing strength. So very good knot testing results in the
    90 - 100 lb. range would be acceptable.

    The most potential for improvement is the SDJ knot.
    Would respectfully suggest the following.
    1. Increase the number of wraps to 5 or 6.
    2. Make sure that the tag end that goes through the loop at the top is going in the same direction as the standing line. This is VERY IMPORTANT. The knot tied in the video shows the standing line and the tag end going in opposite directions through the top loop.
    3. Cinch the knot down very slowly , Snapping the line down creates heat which weakens knots significantly. Even if it is wet. This goes for all knots.
    4. Leave the small loop that is created when cinched down. Do not pull on the tag end to remove it. ( there is a reason for this but too much to type) About half of it can be removed if you must but no more.

    If you do the above please post up . Would be very keen to see the results .

    My .37 cents worth for your consideration.
    Walt
     
    Upvote 0

    Luke

    Uses alot of bait!
    Aug 19, 2006
    637
    743
    Laguna Niguel
    Name
    Luke
    Boat
    none
    Your results are ,,,, as you say,,, "lower then expected".
    First, be advised that the Seguar Premier is an IGFA rated line. Meaning that the line has no over test like standard line. It's ABS must not be more then the labeled strength of the line. Second, fluorocarbons knot strength is significantly less then monofilament. Those two points alone can account for about a 25% reduction in expected testing strength. So very good knot testing results in the
    90 - 100 lb. range would be acceptable.

    The most potential for improvement is the SDJ knot.
    Would respectfully suggest the following.
    1. Increase the number of wraps to 5 or 6.
    2. Make sure that the tag end that goes through the loop at the top is going in the same direction as the standing line. This is VERY IMPORTANT. The knot tied in the video shows the standing line and the tag end going in opposite directions through the top loop.
    3. Cinch the knot down very slowly , Snapping the line down creates heat which weakens knots significantly. Even if it is wet. This goes for all knots.
    4. Leave the small loop that is created when cinched down. Do not pull on the tag end to remove it. ( there is a reason for this but too much to type) About half of it can be removed if you must but no more.

    If you do the above please post up . Would be very keen to see the results .

    My .37 cents worth for your consideration.
    Walt

    Walt’s input on the SD Jam knot is spot on......a few more turns and the tag end needs to be parallel to the main line, not perpendicular. Those simple changes should increase the strength. I have been tying that knot since I was a kid. My dad screwed a ring into our old plum tree in the backyard and he had me practice that knot for days. When tied right very, very strong.

    Loc......thank you for sharing.
     
    Last edited:
    Upvote 0

    spongehead

    "ONE FISH AT A TIME"
    Sep 12, 2010
    704
    739
    garden grove, ca
    Name
    David
    Boat
    Maria
    Hmmm id like to see longer lengths maybe ur damaging line during crimping? Do U burn the tag of crimp end? Heat does affect strength its just plastic really. The way i test knots are whats available to my meager means. I do head to head comparisons of each knot and go to town with my floor jack arm. I find the double SD the best(i use wherever stealth in not needed) then a modified miller(which i use). I find the springer splanger likes to work itself free probably my poor knot technique. Thanks Loc for your time hardwork and generous shares. OG bloodydecker rules!
     
    • Like
    Reactions: locvetter
    Upvote 0

    SouthBayKiller

    I Post A Lot But I Can't Edit This
    Mar 27, 2003
    7,657
    8,192
    40
    Long Beach, CA
    Name
    Robert
    Boat
    none
    Great work. Couple critiques I have are you don’t know what the true ABS of the line is so your percentages are probably skewed lower than they really are. Mainly since all tests failed low this possibly suggests a method error. Either way it’s more work than I’ve done and I appreciate the effort and information. Thank you!
     
    • Like
    Reactions: locvetter
    Upvote 0

    locvetter

    Member
  • Mar 24, 2015
    596
    1,017
    71
    Name
    Loc Vetter
    Boat
    Loc Vetter Casting
    Consistent low test results could indicate that your testing protocol needs to be refined.
    I could not agree more. Gotta do some stewing on how to control more variables. Need better wetting before tightening, for sure.

    I was actually more troubled by the inconsistency (standard dev.)than the overall lowness.

    Also, as I mentioned, I was using Premier, which is thinner than the blue, which I believe is why the crimps, LI's, were not as strong as they would have been had I used the next smaller size.

    Thanks again!
     
    Upvote 0

    locvetter

    Member
  • Mar 24, 2015
    596
    1,017
    71
    Name
    Loc Vetter
    Boat
    Loc Vetter Casting
    That's not how I learned to tie the Spangler. Or Springer as John Collins describes it. There's a major difference in how John ties is, study the video starting at 2:53. I settled on this knot as the best one I ever used on big fish.

    Basil,
    As you know John Collins refers to the knot in that 2014 video as the Springer, but most agree he was not remembering the passenger's name correctly. The difference between what he is doing and what is in Jeff Burroughs illustration is that Jeff goes through the loop created by the first loop.

    Johns technique is easier to tie, and I am pleased to hear it must be strong, if you are using it. I have not tested the Basil/Collins version, but will when my fingers recover from the tying yesterday.

    Thanks so much for you ongoing interest in making us all better!
     
    Upvote 0

    locvetter

    Member
  • Mar 24, 2015
    596
    1,017
    71
    Name
    Loc Vetter
    Boat
    Loc Vetter Casting
    A lot of good work there, thanks.
    Can only speak for the three turn uni, I think you will have better results by tightening the knot using the tag in to tighten, not the mainline.
    You are the second with that comment, the other being in a conversation. Going to do that!
     
    Upvote 0

    locvetter

    Member
  • Mar 24, 2015
    596
    1,017
    71
    Name
    Loc Vetter
    Boat
    Loc Vetter Casting
    Great work. Couple critiques I have are you don’t know what the true ABS of the line is so your percentages are probably skewed lower than they really are. Mainly since all tests failed low this possibly suggests a method error. Either way it’s more work than I’ve done and I appreciate the effort and information. Thank you!
    I wish I had a way to test ABS. The fixtures needed to hold the line such that the ends are not the weak point are VERY expensive, and belong on testing machines like Instron and MTS.

    I need to keep in mind that i am just trying to make the best choice and technique for fishing.
     
    Upvote 0

    5-20

    Poseidon Group's Back Up Trident Thrower
    Jan 20, 2011
    933
    472
    San Diego
    Name
    5-20
    Boat
    L2 Fish
    Noticed the comment about the 3 turn uni knot not exactly looking clean. That was my thought too.

    For those recommending more turns with the San Diego knot — why? I personally tie it with three or four turns with thick line (maybe even #40 or #50 sometimes) that does not cinch up well. I feel like that gives me the most clean and reliable knots and my results have been just fine.
     
    Upvote 0

    locvetter

    Member
  • Mar 24, 2015
    596
    1,017
    71
    Name
    Loc Vetter
    Boat
    Loc Vetter Casting
    I didn't realize the Erwin is simply a Sandiego that goes through the eye twice, I've been tying the SD like that for a while now. But it's kinda weird to me that the single loop around the eye with the sd gets a higher break??? Seems all the results are very low though...humm... can you do a similar comparison with some different brands?
    Clearly, I need to do something.

    I have some Seaguar Blue on it's way -- which I bought to replace the line I used in this testing -- which I thought while I was tying all the knots, was Blue, but was in fact Premier.

    I can reuse the rings and thimbles. I think the fluoro costs about a buck a knot. What we do.
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: spongehead
    Upvote 0

    TOTW

    Time On The Water
    Dec 23, 2005
    1,292
    1,929
    San Diego
    Name
    Chris L
    Boat
    Leo's
    Walt’s input on the SD Jam knot is spot on......a few more turns and the tag end needs to be parallel to the main line, not perpendicular. Those simple changes should increase the strength. I have been tying that knot since I was a kid. My dad screwed a ring into our old plum tree in the backyard and he had me practice that knot for days. When tied right very, very strong.

    Loc......thank you for sharing.

    Speaking of the SD Jam, I like to pile up the coils as I wrap—much like what Loc did on his Trilene knot. Makes for a perfect “hangman’s noose” every time.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: locvetter
    Upvote 0

    George Mara

    Almost A Member
    Apr 22, 2015
    120
    125
    OC
    Name
    Geo
    Boat
    Sold
    IMO. The overall lower than expected results may be a materials or measuring issue. As stated before, control material tests to failure (crimp to crimp or other technique) should be the standard which knots are compared to. The variability between measurements of single knot strength is more of a tying technique issue. This also may be significant as it would indicate technique complexity and forgiveness. Important, for example, when tying in a hurry or in poor light. Steller work though. Thank you.
     
    Upvote 0

    Cubeye

    I Post A Lot But I Can't Edit This
    Jan 26, 2007
    3,779
    2,851
    Los Angeles
    Name
    Kub
    Boat
    17' Gregor
    Basil,
    As you know John Collins refers to the knot in that 2014 video as the Springer, but most agree he was not remembering the passenger's name correctly. The difference between what he is doing and what is in Jeff Burroughs illustration is that Jeff goes through the loop created by the first loop.

    Johns technique is easier to tie, and I am pleased to hear it must be strong, if you are using it. I have not tested the Basil/Collins version, but will when my fingers recover from the tying yesterday.

    Thanks so much for you ongoing interest in making us all better!
    The Spangler Knot is not the same as the knot that John Collins tied. He stated in his video that he did not know the real name of the knot so he credited Springer for showing him the knot. The actual name of the knot is NOT Springer, it's Jansik. This video shows a slightly different way to tie it:

     
    Upvote 0