Just dodged a bullet.

Discussion in 'Washington Fishing Reports' started by South Sounder, Oct 14, 2018.

  1. Wild Bill

    Wild Bill Drinking the Suzuki Kool-aid and liking it!

    Location:
    Camano Island
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    Steve
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    Yes but this is unlikely as it only takes like 5 ohms in a HRC to create enough heat to melt and burn. Also this localized HRC causes a voltage drop to the resistive heating element balancing out total amp draw in the circuit to around normal. Go ahead shoot holes in my theory Horward this shit interests me :-). Breakers rarely trip in cases of HRC. The saving grace is if the are contained away from combustibles.
     
  2. Fireball

    Fireball Not so New

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    Lynnwood, WA. USA
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    Bud
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    I will agree with most of what you said Steve. But in most cases where where you have a load under normal conditions the load with be a constant. But you add a loose connections you will still will a consistent load plus the heating (arc and sparks) of the loose connection. Thus increasing the load on the circuit. For the load to go down you need to change either the constant load or fix the loose connection before the loose connection either burns up, breaks connection or trips out a breaker. Breakers will trip with dead shorts but do take time if at all with loose connections as most loads are not continues.

    We run in to this all the time in some newer homes with back stabbed outlets. One wire will become loose in the back of an outlet and start sparking and melting a wire due to a large load (space heater etc..) being plugged in. The person turns off large load and the loose connection starts to cool and it goes back in forth until the wire or contact is so chard from the arcing there is no more connection. This is where the calls come in that half the living room outlets are not working. I have also seen it in service meters and panels. Half my house is not working you go out to find either the wire at the main breaker is cooked or the meter all sorts of stuff to find. Keeps us in business!
     
  3. Wild Bill

    Wild Bill Drinking the Suzuki Kool-aid and liking it!

    Location:
    Camano Island
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    Steve
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    Ohms law V= I • R or Voltage = amperage x resistance
    So lets do the math on the circuit normal and with higher resistance due to bad connection.

    110v = I • 24 ohms ( approx resistance of 500w element)
    110v/ 24ohms = 4.58 amps ( normal draw)

    So let’s say you add 10 ohms of resistance to the circuit via the bad connection coupled with the 24ohm resistant heater for 34 ohms total. Let’s plug those in and solve for I (amperage).

    110v = I • 34 ohms 110v/34ohms = 3.24 amps (draw with higher resistance due to bad connection)

    It is counter intuitive as Nomad said. Higher amp draw is not the cause of the heat. However 5-10 ohms off resistance at a localized bad connection is enough to elevate temps which can melt and burn and cause problems. Again they will not trip breaker unless deformation causes a short situation which can and does happen. It is a known shortcomming of circuit breakers and is how many electrical fires start. Think of it this way, the element has more or less even resistance spread across the length and put in an area made to handle heat. The bad connection resistance is all concentrated in one spot with combustibles around it (plastic plug) it does not take much resistance to melt and burn being so localized.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  4. wdlfbio

    wdlfbio Once you go Cat, you never go back

    Location:
    maple valley, wa
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    laurence
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    2017 LUMACAT 28' Sport
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    Maybe he just had nice fish and a shitty marinade and God wasn’t gonna let that happen!
     
  5. MYNomad

    MYNomad Heading South

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    Pacific Northwest / West Coast Mexico
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    Rick
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    First, I am not an electrician, electrical engineer or any other kind of engineer. I am just a guy who reads about stuff and tries to understand it and make use of knowledge in practical ways. I have built alot of stuff that depend on electrical circuits functioning properly. Even so, I may be wrong. But here is my thinking (note that I haven't been drinking yet today, and my logic still makes sense to me).

    I believe, and trust you concur, that Ohm's law applies in circumstances like these.
    It says there is a relationship between voltage, current and resistance. If you know any of the two, you can determine the third. That relationship is defined by the equation:
    Voltage = Current (represented by the letter "I") x Resistance, or V=IR

    In this case, the supply voltage is constant -- it is coming from the power company with little variability (and none of that variability related to this circuit), so the current multiplied by the resistance must also be constant. If we double the resistance, we cut the current in half. Which should make intuitive sense since if we eliminate the resistance (ie, get it down to almost zero), the current will go through the rough until a circuit breaker somewhere blows, etc. Similarly, if we increase the resistance (pulling the plug just 1/16" from the socket creates HUGE resistance -- so much resistance that at 120v no measurable current will flow (but if the voltage were increase to, say 100,000 volts, that 1/16" air gap would not create enough resistance to prevent the flow of all current -- instead, you would likely see an arc).

    I think the problem with your reasoning is that it fails to recognize that a higher amperage heating element achieve at additional amperage (ie current flow) by reducing the internal resistance). Hope this makes sense, but if I got it wrong, please explain my error.
     
  6. Fireball

    Fireball Not so New

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    Bud
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    I think we are saying the same thing here. Here is what I posted earlier.

    "When you get a loose connection it creates resistance of flow and heat will start to build up and melt things. At some point along the way they will catch fire or short out and trip the breaker."

    As far as resistance a low resistance will draw more current.
    10 ohm's / 1440 watts at 120 volts = 12 amps
    28.8 ohm's / 500 watts at 120 volts = 4.16 amps
    (120 volts / 38.8 ohm's = 3.09 amps 371.13 watts)

    Any time you have heat build up you have power being used. Also if both heating points have the proper voltage going to them it would be a total load they would draw. So at the heating element you are drawing 500 watts/4.16 amps (with proper voltage) come down stream to the loose connection (10 ohm's) 1440 watts/12 amps for a combine load of 1940 watts/16.16 amps. The loose connection is still letting power through to the farthest point until it fails.

    Then it comes down to what Howard said,

     
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  7. Waterdog~

    Waterdog~ Just one more

    Location:
    Hollywood
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    Brian
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    Tiderunner
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    I think operator error have you ever seen him fish...…...LOL
     
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  8. hawksfan75

    hawksfan75 More questions than answers

    Location:
    Kent, WA USA
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    Eric
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    Hydra Sports 2200 DC
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    To put it so most of us can understand: "Holy shit, the fucking thing caught on fire?!?!?!"
     
  9. Wild Bill

    Wild Bill Drinking the Suzuki Kool-aid and liking it!

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    Steve
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    Glad we got that shit straight without 20 plus fucking pages:D.
     
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  10. Fireball

    Fireball Not so New

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    Lynnwood, WA. USA
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    Bud
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    That's funny shit!:rofl::rofl:
     
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  11. MYNomad

    MYNomad Heading South

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    I, too, understand and agree with what Wild Bill said (and find no inconsistency between my comments and his), but not sure whether I got it right or not, since your comment was 180 degree opposite of mine. I am referring to your comment that "if resistance goes up current goes UP". As I explained my understanding above, I believe it goes down. Did I screw this up? I infer that you are a professional in this area (admittedly, I am not), so if I got it wrong, I have a serious gap in my understanding of electricity that needs to be fixed before someone (probably me) gets electrocuted. (And if I got it right, feel free to PM me if you prefer).
     
  12. South Sounder

    South Sounder Skipper

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    South Sound/ WA/ USA
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    Chris
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    That’s the most plausible thing
     
  13. Barracuda1

    Barracuda1 Master of None

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    All over this bitch!
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    Fred
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    Nice Coho Steve!!
     
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  14. TonyG

    TonyG I've posted enough I should edit this section

    Location:
    Snohomish, WA
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    Tony
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    NR Seahawk OS 26'; 20' Alumaweld Super Vee Sled
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    And to be clear, I called the coast guard as soon as I read the OP.

    Then I salvaged
     
  15. Nineball

    Nineball That's a keeper!

    Location:
    Port orchard
    Name:
    Chris
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    Parker 2310 "GUANO LOCO"
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    So let me get this straight

    Bud and Steve have some magic formula whereby Eric believes that Chris caught some really nice salmon but Brian doesn't give a fuck so Rick (being from Mexico) put the fire out by pouring a corona on it after he was drunk due to an act of a salmon God named Laurence.
    I will probably have to hang out with rick more

    PS I still haven't quite figured out how Fred and Tony intend to blow the whistle on the whole operation
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  16. South Sounder

    South Sounder Skipper

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    South Sound/ WA/ USA
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    Chris
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    The smoker has been taken to a hidden cove but there’s some locals blowing the operation up and the owner who gave it to me is telling people it’s brand new with a few replacement parts obtained from the manufacturer.
     
  17. wdlfbio

    wdlfbio Once you go Cat, you never go back

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    laurence
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    Funny chit kiddos
     
  18. TonyG

    TonyG I've posted enough I should edit this section

    Location:
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    Tony
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    I was hoping to skip this part of the story. Shit.
     
  19. eldplanko

    eldplanko got the skunk off

    Location:
    Ballard
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    My other boat is a piece of...
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    Someone should post this thing for sale in the Cali classifieds
     
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  20. Joelsk15

    Joelsk15 Member

    Location:
    Port Orchard WA
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    Joel
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    The Thirsty
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    All this technical talk!! Here's the real question, what are you replacing it with? I want to replace my big chief, but haven't decided what to replace it with. The Masterbuilt's look okay for the price.
     

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