Illegal to have 2 assist hooks on a flat fall plus a hook on dropper loop for rockfishing in Socal?

lichenpan

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    I have done my research here but can't find a clear answer. when attaching assist hooks to a flat fall, are the flat fall jig itself considered as a common "shank" and the assist hooks are considered as points? Does that mean you can attach unlimited assist hooks to a jig and they are still considered as one single hook? I am trying to use a flat fall jig with one single dropper loop on top for rockfishing and not sure if it is legal to do so.

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    split172

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    See section (c) below. When rock fishing, ONE line, no more than TWO hooks. Two separate hooks max. The jig would not be considered a “shank”. Use the flat fall with one hook (single, double, or treble type) and one hook for dropper loop ( single, double, or treble type).

    Gear Restrictions
    28.65. GENERAL. Except as provided in this article, fin fish may be taken only on hook-and-line or by hand. Any number of hooks and lines may be used in all ocean waters and bays except:
    (a) San Francisco Bay, as described in Section 27.00, where only one line with not more than three hooks may be used.
    (b) On public piers, no person shall use more than two rods and lines, two hand lines, or two nets, traps or other appliances used to take crabs.
    (c) When rockfish (genus Sebastes), lingcod (Ophiodon elongatus), cabezon (Scorpaenichthys marmoratus), or kelp or rock greenlings (Hexagrammos decagrammus and Hexagrammos lagocephalus) are aboard or in possession, where only one line with not more than two hooks may be used pursuant to Sections 28.55, 28.27, 28.28 or 28.29, respectively.
     
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    lichenpan

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    See section (c) below. When rock fishing, ONE line, no more than TWO hooks. Two separate hooks max. The jig would not be considered a “shank”. Use the flat fall with one hook (single, double, or treble type) and one hook for dropper loop ( single, double, or treble type).

    Gear Restrictions
    28.65. GENERAL. Except as provided in this article, fin fish may be taken only on hook-and-line or by hand. Any number of hooks and lines may be used in all ocean waters and bays except:
    (a) San Francisco Bay, as described in Section 27.00, where only one line with not more than three hooks may be used.
    (b) On public piers, no person shall use more than two rods and lines, two hand lines, or two nets, traps or other appliances used to take crabs.
    (c) When rockfish (genus Sebastes), lingcod (Ophiodon elongatus), cabezon (Scorpaenichthys marmoratus), or kelp or rock greenlings (Hexagrammos decagrammus and Hexagrammos lagocephalus) are aboard or in possession, where only one line with not more than two hooks may be used pursuant to Sections 28.55, 28.27, 28.28 or 28.29, respectively.
    So the regulation considers 2 assist hooks that are tied to one single line as 2 separate hooks instead of one double hook with 2 points?
     
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    alex88

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    So the regulation considers 2 assist hooks that are tied to one single line as 2 separate hooks instead of one double hook with 2 points?
    Yes. The shank being referred to is the straight section of the hook from the eye to the bend. A single, double or treble all share a single shank.

    Since each assist hook has its own cord in lieu of a shank they are separate hooks. It would be the same as if you put two single traditional hooks on the same split ring. Still two hooks.
     
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    dsl

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    2 is 2
     

    Shane R

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    Ok to revisit this topic.
    I recently bought some rigged flat falls they are the new tady tuna jigs sold at a local tackle shop. They come with 4 hooks. Everything I have read on here and department of fish and game web site says the are not legal. Almost as stupid as 😷. Found this
    In California, “all fish may be taken only by angling with one closely attended rod and line or one hand line with not more than three hooks nor more than three artificial lures (each lure may have three hooks attached) thereto” (California Code of Regulations, section 2.00).
    But that contradicts what has been posted above.
     
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    Shane R

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    Not that it really matters two or three on a lure. When the lure has 4 it is illegal in any of the above scenarios.
    But dose create the question of why local tackle shops up and down the coast are selling flat falls with two assist hooks connected at a swivel and one or more hooks connected to bottom of flat fall.
     
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    azbaseball

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    Ok to revisit this topic.
    I recently bought some rigged flat falls they are the new tady tuna jigs sold at a local tackle shop. They come with 4 hooks. Everything I have read on here and department of fish and game web site says the are not legal. Almost as stupid as 😷. Found this
    In California, “all fish may be taken only by angling with one closely attended rod and line or one hand line with not more than three hooks nor more than three artificial lures (each lure may have three hooks attached) thereto” (California Code of Regulations, section 2.00).
    But that contradicts what has been posted above.
    Rock fish regulations are specific to rock fish. You can fish for sand dabs with several hooks but if you have one rock fish on deck you can only use two hooks. if game and fish catch you with rock fish on deck and more than two hooks on the rod they will write you up even through you are fishing sand dabs. Then they are referring to artificial lures' they are looking at trolling plugs that have several hooks attached directly to the body of the lure. Assist hooks are not attached to the body of the lure but attached to a ring which has the lure attached to. Cheers
     
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    Shane R

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    I guess I should have been more specific in my question.
    When fishing for highly migratory fish per ca fish and game. Not rock fish, ground fish, salmon. Etc...
    I am talking about fishing for tuna or yellow tail.
    A jig with 3 hooks all attached to the jig. Would be legal per the definition of a artificial lure. Correct?
    Or is there a special rule when fishing for tuna/yellow tail.
    I get the two hook's attached to main line.
    The question was simply why are local tackle shops selling lures with 4 hooks two that are connected to the main line and two connecting to the jig

    1623943697172.png
     
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    surfgoose

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    Shane, you are reading the FRESHWATER regulations, and thinking that it applies to SALTWATER. They are different regulations.

    Like split172 noted, section 28.65 of the SALTWATER regulations makes the basic observation that multiple hooks are almost always completely legal. There are specific, noted species where restrictions are applied.

    The sporting goods stores (or the internet) are perfectly legal in selling lures with multiple hooks. Or you can add them yourself. And if you are fishing for yellowtail or tuna, you are fine.
     
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    ShadowX

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    The regulations are very clear. If you have onboard or in possession any of the following fish: Rockfish, Cabezon, Lingcod, Greenling or Sculpin, you must have two hooks maximum on your gear.

    If you don't have any of those species on board, you are free to use as many hooks as possible.

    However, if you are fishing on the bottom, you are very likely to hook one of the species, you must have only two hooks. The keyword is "onboard". If you happen to hook up one of the species and bring it to the surface, you have it onboard. Its safer to limit to 2 hooks unless you know there is ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE of hooking any of the species below. If you are tuna fishing or fishing the kelps for yellowtails, you can put 40 hooks on your flatfalls if you wanted to.

    If you are fishing on the bottom, you definitely want to limit to 2 hooks or you can be cited if they have proof that you had one of those species onboard. You risk a chance of getting cite if you are sand dab fishing because its still possible to hook up a rockfish. It is really up to the DFG to determine if they want to cite you for that. If you have no rockfish on board, they need to have video or a photo to prove of you bring up a rockfish even if you released it back.

    Section 28.65
    1623965313281.png
     
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    dsl

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    The regulations are very clear. If you have onboard or in possession any of the following fish: Rockfish, Cabezon, Lingcod, Greenling or Sculpin, you must have two hooks maximum on your gear.
    And then the above regs get tougher when salmone are aboard, before or after, and depth of water, and so on, and so on, pretty soon you need a F&G, on board to desifer the regs!
     

    ShadowX

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    And then the above regs get tougher when salmone are aboard, before or after, and depth of water, and so on, and so on, pretty soon you need a F&G, on board to desifer the regs!

    Salmon is a whole different subject and the regulations are different. We occasionally get a few below Pt Conception, but the regulations are a lot different down here. All the other regulations apply across the entire state.
     
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    surfgoose

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    ShadowX -- Bringing a fish to the surface doesn't mean that you have it "onboard" or in possession because you never know what fish will jump onto your hook. Maybe you have a black sea bass, or a baby white shark, or snag a garibaldi, or whatever. You identify it as something you can't keep and you release it as quickly and cleanly as possible. That is a major reason why the regulations require a net be available on all boats, so you don't have to lift the fish up into the boat to unhook it.

    The good news about the regulations is that they are written so that a reasonable person can understand and obey them. And likewise a reasonable officer will enforce the regulations with an awareness of how laws work in the real world. Just because a citation COULD be written doesn't mean that one MUST be written. Was harm caused? Was intent demonstrated? Is it ignorance or willful disregard? Is there any safety issue involved?

    There will always be the occasional officer who gets overzealous, and writes up something that should be let go with a caution. That is why the process also includes district attorneys and then a judge, and a citation can be reduced or dismissed.
     
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    ShadowX

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    ShadowX -- Bringing a fish to the surface doesn't mean that you have it "onboard" or in possession because you never know what fish will jump onto your hook. Maybe you have a black sea bass, or a baby white shark, or snag a garibaldi, or whatever. You identify it as something you can't keep and you release it as quickly and cleanly as possible. That is a major reason why the regulations require a net be available on all boats, so you don't have to lift the fish up into the boat to unhook it.

    The good news about the regulations is that they are written so that a reasonable person can understand and obey them. And likewise a reasonable officer will enforce the regulations with an awareness of how laws work in the real world. Just because a citation COULD be written doesn't mean that one MUST be written. Was harm caused? Was intent demonstrated? Is it ignorance or willful disregard? Is there any safety issue involved?

    There will always be the occasional officer who gets overzealous, and writes up something that should be let go with a caution. That is why the process also includes district attorneys and then a judge, and a citation can be reduced or dismissed.

    The word "possession" is a legal term and there countless examples. In general the term implies that "to possess something, a person must have an intention to possess it."

    On the other hand, there is no clear defined legal term for "onboard" on the page 22 of the "general provision and definitions" on the regulation book. Merriam Webster defines it as "carried within or occurring aboard a vehicle". If you released the fish without having it on your ship, you may be legal. However, if you put the fish in the ship to unhook and then released it, you could still be cited. The fish was technically "onboard" your ship when it was unhooked. That is the main reason why you should release the black seabass while its on the water and don't take pictures with you holding the fish in your boat. Most people don't release the rockfish while its in the water. They pick it up while they stand on the boat, unhook the fish and toss it off. The fish was technically on board your ship at that time.

    There is a huge difference between the legal meaning so if its not clear cut, you have to err on the conservative side. For instance, before there was a fillet size limit for sheephead, you can't technically fillet the fish in the ship even if the fish is of legal size prior to fillet. Another example is with whitefish. You can keep whitefish of any size, but if you fillet the fish, the fillets must be 6-1/2 inches minimum.

    If you prefer to define it to whatever YOU THINK it means, its up to you. These DFG are not dumb. They have lawyers writing their regulations and when they put the terms "onboard or in possession " they are covering their asses. They know that the legal word "possession" needs proof of INTENT of possessing, but the word "onboard" is to cover them so they don't need to show the proof of "intent." They are tricky bastards so don't let them fool you. I rather not have to hire legal representation to explain what I think it means to the judge.
     
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    surfgoose

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    Well, ShadowX, I served as one of those "tricky bastards" and so I commented as I did from a position of actual on-water experience. Your experience and training may have led you to a different perspective. But the vast majority of my interactions with fishermen taught me that 19 out of 20 are just trying to have a nice day on the water with friends and family and are trying to do it legally, even though they may not know for sure what exactly they have gotten to the side of the boat. And I never wrote a ticket on anyone who was trying to return a live fish to the water as best that they could without being bitten or fin-spiked. Maybe that's why I never had a citation thrown out by the DA or judge. I had a very good training officer. The first thing that he said to me, the very first day that I rode with him, was, "Rule Number One: We don't write chickensh*t tickets. Sometimes people make mistakes, and sometimes people try to get away with things. You'll see the difference." And it quickly became apparent.
     

    dsl

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    But the vast majority of my interactions with fishermen taught me that 19 out of 20 are just trying to have a nice day on the water with friends and family and are trying to do it legally,
    👌
     

    ShadowX

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    Well, ShadowX, I served as one of those "tricky bastards" and so I commented as I did from a position of actual on-water experience. Your experience and training may have led you to a different perspective. But the vast majority of my interactions with fishermen taught me that 19 out of 20 are just trying to have a nice day on the water with friends and family and are trying to do it legally, even though they may not know for sure what exactly they have gotten to the side of the boat. And I never wrote a ticket on anyone who was trying to return a live fish to the water as best that they could without being bitten or fin-spiked. Maybe that's why I never had a citation thrown out by the DA or judge. I had a very good training officer. The first thing that he said to me, the very first day that I rode with him, was, "Rule Number One: We don't write chickensh*t tickets. Sometimes people make mistakes, and sometimes people try to get away with things. You'll see the difference." And it quickly became apparent.

    The reality is there has been many other people with different experiences with other enforcers. We both know if the person is respectful, you give them a benefit of a doubt. If the person is an absolute jerk, you will find every reason to cite them.

    You and I both know the rule books are written by the lawyers and not the law enforcers. Each word has a legal meaning in a court of law. The fact that it was written in such a way that its open for interpretation is the reason why we have courts to interpret the law.

    For instance, the rule book says its legal to fish up to the 40 fathom depth contour line per the Federal regulations (50 CFR Part 660, Subpart C) in Cowcod areas. Guess what? Some areas like the Santa Barbara Island only has federal depth contour up to 30 fathoms. Is it legal to fish in waters deeper than 30 fathoms? We all know the answer is "no" because there is no federal line defining the 40 fathom depth in those areas. Its a gray area. One can argue they are legal, because the rulebook allow up to 40 fathoms, but it doesn't. The state regulation points to the federal rules and if you didn't know those details, you would be in deep crap in a court of law. Until the federal guidelines include those GPS locations, its not legal. In fact, if you follow the 30 fathom markers, some areas are much deeper than 30 fathoms while others are a lot more shallow, so you can't rely on the fish finder depth to be within the limits. All the regulation has to do is to provide a list of GPS spots similar to the MLPA zones, but they don't.

    There are many other gray areas in the rule book.

    (1) January 1 through the last day in February: Closed, except take of California scorpionfish is prohibited seaward of a line approximating the 40-fathom depth contour along islands and offshore seamounts, defined by connecting the appropriate waypoints adopted in Federal regulations (50 CFR Part 660, Subpart C).



    (50 CFR Part 660, Subpart C).
    (k) The 30 fm (55 m) depth contour around Santa Barbara Island off the state of California is defined by straight lines connecting all of the following points in the order stated:

    (1) 33°30.38′ N lat., 119°03.15′ W long.;
    (2) 33°29.64′ N lat., 119°00.58′ W long.;
    (3) 33°27.24′ N lat., 119°01.73′ W long.;
    (4) 33°27.76′ N lat., 119°03.48′ W long.;
    (5) 33°29.50′ N lat., 119°04.20′ W long.; and
    (6) 33°30.38′ N lat., 119°03.15′ W long.
     
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