Guide foot prep - Presented by DocSki

Discussion in 'Fishing Rod building Tutorials' started by Scold, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. Scold

    Scold Yes, that's my back.

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  2. pascuale

    pascuale Well-Known "Member"

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    Is the reasoning for grinding so that when wrapping on the foot of the guide, the thread does not slip down a steep slope? So basically you are making a more flat surface so you can wrap evenly? I just wrapped my first 4 guides and it was a major pain in the ass because the area of the guide foot had a steep slope and the thread could not wrap evenly. the result was pretty sloppy.
     
  3. polfishski

    polfishski Well-Known "Member"

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    Thanks for the tip. I haven't repaired my broken guide yet but will sooner or later.
     
  4. fishcrazy

    fishcrazy Member

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    It's done mostly so that you have a smooth transition from your base wrap up from the foot. Also something to watch for is this, before you start take a straight edge & lay it on the bottom of the guide foot where it will meet the base wrap & make sure it is flat on both sides of the guide, you may have to file it just a bit or bent it slightly,I've had to do this a couple of times.
     
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  5. GClev

    GClev Newbie for Life

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    Grinding guides is one choice. A perfect transition allows for a smoother wrap. However, most modern guides are coated, colored, and many have gone through some complex proprietary chemical or physical vapor deposition processes to enhance their durability and corrosion resistance. Grinding the surface coating and base metal from the guides' feet just to make them a little easier to wrap is only one choice. A Sharpee marker is not a suitable replacement for a baked powder or titanium vapor deposition coating. In all cases, I prefer to leave the coatings intact. Boat rods die young. I quit grinding guides about 30 years ago.

    If the guide isn't flat on a surface, and the tip of the foot is off the rod, it's going to be a bit trickier to wrap. Try to bend it a tiny bit in the body of the guide, where it is designed to bend, instead of tweaking the tip of a guide's foot. Bending a foot near the tip seems simple but can also crack the finish. Alternately, the guide can either be tied tight to the rod with a few wraps of 1/8" tape or even pre-wrapped in the middle of the foot with a short length of heavy thread which can be removed once the final wrap is up over the tip of the foot. If it's too far out of square, use another guide.

    With some careful wrapping, always uphill, toward the center of the guide in both directions (downhill wraps slip too much), followed by some meticulous burnishing, any minor flaw that might remain at the tip of the foot always seems to disappear when it's coated with the 2-part finish. The method works for single as well as double overwraps. At its worst, with poor quality guide feet, a tip may show through the finish and the rod might not win a beauty contest. However, wraps over intact guides that have not been ground resist corrosion better, last longer, and may even win the beauty contest a few years down the road.

    The old school Perfection guides used to turn the wraps green the first season when the chrome was ground off of the brass wire to make them easier to wrap. New stainless and alloy guides don't give the same color change, but cracks in the epoxy finish still happen. Saltwater intrudes. Shit happens.

    So would you rather have a rod that looks perfect when it's brand new? Or one that works well and lasts a long longer? That's the other choice.
     
  6. newell doctor

    newell doctor Surf for life

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    Nice , this old guy learned something , thx
     
  7. collin sheehan

    collin sheehan Newbie

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    Gary, when doing your double over wraps, do you start from the bottom and work your way up two times and tie off twice or wrap up and work your way back down?
     
  8. GClev

    GClev Newbie for Life

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    With deference to the question and in detail, albeit probably now in the wrong thread, unless juxtaposition is acceptable, I can't answer that question without the full context of spinning a monobloc construction being known and restated, otherwise this extensive collection of useless information that took a lifetime to acquire truly proves its uselessness.

    The theory of spinning a unibody foot bedding and guide whipping is a pretty far cast from the original topic, grinding guide feet. I usually delete the morning's daily writing exercise and I usually do that. In retro, maybe this yarn ought to be cast into rod talk for general interest or the garbage can for ever.

    To the question of "turnarounds" the long answer comes from the best of everyman's rod bench from OC to the Valley, a tao that hasn't changed much since my drive went from floppy to hard... in the 80s. Rod hoodoo time. For an answer we seek wisdom from the Tao of Go - What is the thread thinking?

    Spin underwraps uphill tip to grip, just snug, not too tight, a whipping to support glue and pad the blank. Light to just-snug. Tight wraps strangle a blank.

    Spin first overwrap, guide tip to ring, always toward the ring in the middle again, just snug, and tie. Thread tensions are variable when adding a guide, moving up around a pointed tip of the foot, and most notable if you use your finger tips. Loose to climb the tip, snug to grip the tip and tight to absorb a little downhill burnishing. Leave the gap of chrome at the tip and return later. Spin a few more at just-snug, spin to the foot's heel, finish and tie. This layer is when finished in total, just-snug tension, never tight, since whippings are additive and powerful. Pause. Burnish lightly to fill the gap at the tip of each foot, if there is one. Leave small spaces evenly divided if needed to fill the gap.

    The 2d overwrap is much easier to install since both wraps on both feet going uphill now track the spin of the layer of thread below, following or filling it and minimizing any blems. Light wrap tension on the looser side for the 2d overwrap, so it doesn't cut in or wreck work below. 2d overwrap doesn't really whip guides again. The power of 2x infinity is still infinity. This second layer is armor not strength. It thickens the build and produces a highly durable final outer skin.

    Using a monobloc polymer chem efficiently to cast a whole series of guide-to-blank bedding matrices in a single-soak glue construction requires that three thread layers will accept no intermediate coatings, no sealers, nor anything else to inhibit the flow, prevent anything but a full and complete soaking from blank to skin, or dilute the chemistry of the initial dosing of epoxy. Proper viscosity and temp and non-reactive thinners ensure the first few dabs of the brush completely fill all the thread interstices and the all-important void found under every guide's feet with the clearest dollop of resin. Every spider hole is filled to the thread's edge. The air in the room is filled with the remarkable fragrances of ketones and amines. The rod spins at slow dryer speed (6-8) to soak and then it stops. Resin hangs and sags back into a waiting brush as needed and the exterior finish of each guide changes back from the wet look of resin to different more familiar pattern, the skin of thread, ribs in spinning rows, now made shiny and bound in polymer. Spin a slow dryer speed and stop, drain any resin that sags again. Let the dryer run and in 2 hours or so lay a series custom serviceable beddings of chewy, bubble-free polymer. In an ideal world that single app of resin does all the work, and supports every little un-ground, un-twisted, and ill-fitting, guide foot with its own permanent heavy duty grippy whipping.

    Pictures of guides that were easily tied and those that presented less easily, all wrapped in black, from a score of rods in the infinity rack, with a collection of various feet, all spun since the first post in this thread, showed nothing. All black or skeletonized black, well-tied on honey glass, or black glass, and the pics show nothing. The easily tied guides cannot be differentiated from the more difficult and are now part of a unified lineup. Nothing. Looking at the rods with my eyes, it's just black, some smooth, and some finishes left with D-width ribbing. Black is just too easy to use, too economical when fishing without fanfare, and minimizing whether or not carrying too many or too few rods. Black is also easy to lose or give away; the lack of color goes with everything. From layout to chemistry, the road to "tuna boat tough" doesn't have to be anything other than the existential connection of a collection of different things, both rigid and flexible, and that bonding is made greater by unity of chemistry, a simplicity in design and implementation, and allows clearer focus in search of strength in both mind and finger by the home constructor in the complete absence of color.

    Writing that was like reading Moby Dick and learning every detail of whale flesh flensing and rendering. The rank stank of rotting whale carcass fills every sinus and the memory of a nose made putrid by foul odor lasts a lifetime. Light some incense, would ya?

    To the original question on thread "turnarounds," uphill and down. Two layers spun in different directions are not in harmony. It can make sense to a human, but confuse the thread. Up and down, the "turnaround" does not track the layer below and crosses a single thread with every spin. RED card. Always no.

    In darkness or light, the single threads of the unity layers over the guides must spin in only one direction together, in harmony with their chiral universe, like DNA.

    Tao of Go is loving the best easiest best. Bench of Yo was a cluttered mess.

    Keep fingers clean with no soapy fats or oils to contaminate threads, use boraxo.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
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  9. collin sheehan

    collin sheehan Newbie

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    collin sheehan
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    Thank you for the detailed response. Very informative
     
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  10. MATTANZA

    MATTANZA old man of the sea, in training.

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    RICK
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    I use my 6" disc sander with 100grit. works way better than my grinder.
     
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