Discussion in 'Hunting Discussion' started by TN_Troller, Jun 29, 2007.
You are COOORRRRECT!
no debate from me. Remington's are usually quite accurate. They make fantastic target rifles. They are just not my preference for hunting. I like CRF and I like a 3 position safety. Visit any Alaskan or African safari hunting camp. You won't see a Remington. I treat every big game hunt as if it were my last and I only hunt with guns that I know I can rely on. I've personally never, ever, had a gun failure. The only even minor malfunction I've ever had was with my Remington 11-78 shotgun. Go figure.
The tactical and target stuff just doesn't do it for me as it's not my cup of tea. For me, guns are for hunting and I just happen to find a hunting arm far more interesting than a gun that never leaves the street or range.
Don't take offense, it's just my opinion, based on my own experience. You have your opinion based on your experience. Arguing about gun brands is lame, almost as bad as arguing over which American truck is the best.
BTW, I drive a Dodge, and it kicks ass.
Another Savage fan here.
The folks over in finland can build a nice rifle. Sako/tikka
Get a 6.5 mm you can hit quarters at 300 yards!
If you read in my first post, I stated North American Game Hunting...
Africa is a total different planet as far as I am concerned. If hunting africa I would use a Over/Under 375 H&H or 400 Tempo at a minimum...No scope, Open Sites. However shots are normally about 100 to 150 max yds. Then the 400 gr Bullet even if you miss the heart, the Hydrostatic Shock liquifies the internals, fucks up the meat. Most people are not eating Cape Buffalo or a Kudo, They are there for the Head mount.
When I kill an animal. I want a Heart shot or Neck Shot. Drop that sucker imediately. I want to eat the meat. Thats not the standard in hunting African species. Persoannly Horns dont taste so good and they fuck up your teeth. I prefer 2-3 year old White tail/ Mulie Doe..Better yet 2 year old Axis Dow...Melts in your mouth.
I get concerned when people start questioning the reliability of Remingtons, that are used by people who put their lives on the line. If that rifles fail, they could die...
To me, its basic economics...If I spend my hard earned cash, I want to know that I am getting the most for my money. Also, I want to know that the thing Im buying is not going to depreciate 50% value before I get out the door. Remintons hold their value better than most. They are easy to work on. Have the most options to dress them up.
To me this is not a Truck pissing contest. To me Savage is probably the closest to remington for out of the box accuracy. But they are no were near the Quality, Resale Value, Available Parts, comparison to a Remington. Hell, a Remington Action alone is worth $300 to any Rifle Gunsmith...ACTION ALONE...A couple hours of his time, Trueing it up, screwing on a Barrel, Bolting it to a decent off the shelf stock. He has a One Hole Rifle that he can sell for $2000, and he makes a $500 profit.
Savages are great for the basic hunting rifle. If people are happy with the Stock then they will be happy with the rifle. But they are not One Holers. They will shoot sub MOA. Which is fine for shots out to 150yds...
Lets say you need to shoot a Pronghorn at 400yds...Elk at 300yds... Or better yet (One of My Favorites) Prairie Dogs at 600 plus yds... I dont think your gonna trust that $400 Savage for shots like this. But thats my opinion. But Im not using $200 scopes either.
Basic White Tail/Mulie hunting to 150 yds. Savage is fine. Anything further than that, you need a very accurate rifle, unless you like chasing wounded animals for miles on end...Then the meat is worthless...
What ever you choose, just make sure the shot your gonna take is within the you and your rifles capabilities. When you can hit a 3" Target every single time, including cold bore shots. That is your maximum range.
Tracking wounded animals more than a 150yds is not fun. Frankly it piss's me off.
Sako and Tikka are nice rifles, To me they are over priced. I can get a stock Remington out of the box for $600, I can then send it to my Gun Smith (R+D Precision), Randy will true up the action, recrown the barrell for $200-$300...You have a .5" Rifle all day long at 100yds...If randy changes out the barrell for another $300, you have a .25" @ 100yds. Your at $1200 for a .25" Rifle, not bad, I willing to take a Pronghorn shot at 400yds with this. Also, 5 years later, guess what the rifle is worth...$1200.
A Sako is $1000-1200New, Tikkas are cheaper, but find someone who works on them...If you were to sample 10 of them right out of the factory. how many would be .5" rifles at 100yds. Maybe a couple, but not the majority. What is the value of a used Sako or Tikka, 80% of new???
Another good action is the BRNO, Which is used in alot of custom rifles for African Safaries.
My 6/284, I can hit Quarters at 500yds, But its about time for new barrel on that one. I have a couple hundred rounds left, its seeing alot of safe time now. 6/284 Is an awesome Varmint Caliber, but it sure eats up barrels...I will probably change to the 6.5/284 when the barrel dies...Alot of boys are winning the 1000yd matchs with them.
Mark down another vote for Savage. Reasonable, accurate and reliable. My 30/06 has seen many kills the last 10 years without any issues.
Keeper, no pissing match, I'm glad you found a rifle to be confident in. I have too, it just happens to be of a different brand. Besides, these days I seem to prefer a Mathews "string rifle".
I bow hunted for many years...Thats work...Matthews is one awesome bow. I had one of the first Solo Cams made...
Anyway, my ankles are way to bad to be hunting...If I break one again, I may walk with a limp for the rest of my life. Hell I had another ankle surgery about 6-8weeks ago.
Which is why I got into competitive shooting.
Well Sleuster is about as mobile as a lawn sprinkler so we just stick him in a tree blind. He does quite well.
You should try using a tree blind.
I wouldn't be so quick to knock the long range accuracy of the Savage rifles. Plenty of varmint hunters use them on prairie dogs at 400-600+ yards with great success.
I personally killed a bull elk in Colorado 2 seasons ago with my bone stock Savage 111FC 7mm Rem Mag at 420 yards. It was the old style factory trigger and factory stock. I bought it as a "package gun" that came with a cheap scope and it was like $400 out the door. I put a Burris Fullfield II on it and sold the scope it came with on Ebay. My antelope load out of that rifle shoots sub .5" with handloads and I've never spent a dime on gunsmithing on it.
The old Savage triggers suck but the newer style Accutriggers are excellent and easily adjustable. I have one on my Savage 12FV 22-250 and that rifle is also a tack driver with no gunsmithing. I splurged and spent another $100 and put a B&C stock on it just to dress it up a bit. Again, I spent around $400 for that "package gun" and sold the 4x12 scope it came with on Ebay and recouped some of my money.
One of the main reasons Savages are so accurate is the floating bolt head design which essentially eliminates the need to have the action trued by a gunsmith. All lower-end mass produced rifles (Savage, Remington 700, etc) are made to production tolerances that are not condusive to optimal accuracy. The floating bolt head design effectively takes up this "slop" and ends up shooting much better out of the box than other rifles in its class. I'm talking about varmint/hunting rifle type accuracy here. If you want to compete then you're in a whole different class of rifle/action.
Dollar for dollar as it pertains to accuracy the Savages cannot be beat, IMHO. If you factor in the switch-barrel capability then you have the ability to have multiple calibers by only investing in one rifle and scope. You can also swap out different diameter bolt heads and extend the available calibers even further within the specific action length category. That translates into huge dollar savings.
Remington has the edge in the availability of aftermarket parts, but Savage is gaining ground in that area. You can now buy McMillan stocks for Savage rifles. I know plenty of guys that own 700's and they are nice rifles. But for my dollar, I'll stick with the Savage.
On that elk kill, Did you kill him with one round? Were did you hit him. Did he drop dead in his tracks or did you have to track him? Was it a Clean Cold Bore Shot, or dirty bore? Did the elevation/temp of Colorado have an impact on your Cold Bore shot.
My last Elk was killed at 275yds. I shot it in the ear....Dropped dead in its tracks, Didnt even take a step. The first thing to hit the ground was its nose. Damn good meat. It was about a 5-6 year old Cow.
That shot was taken with a cold clean bore shot. The rifle was used and sited in Pala CA. Placed in a Pelican Case, Traveled to a ranch in Texas, Pulled out of case with the first round fired being the clean cold bore shot on that elk. Thats confidence in a rifle/scope. I used a Leica Laser Range finder with a Nightforce NXS 5X22 NPR2 Scope. I adjusted for the elevation and windage for that shot.
Now you have to consider all the effects of that shot. Temp/Humidity/baro pressure/elevation. I know that My rifle shoots about .25MOA higher at 90 degrees than at 70 degrees at 300yds. I also fully understand the effects of the angle of the shot, the Ballistic Coeffient of the Bullet. I can go on and on...even with different characteristics of the Powder that I used in that load.
Taking a shot at 400yds without taking none of the above in account with a $400 rifle, is either lucky, or ????
Im not judgeing you or your shot. But your statements might give newbie hunters confidence that they shouldnt have. Which most likely results in a major miss, or worst case a wounded animal.
Taking shots at LIVE ANIMALS AT 400yds shouldnt be done by people who may put 20-50rds per year thru there rifle. It takes a very experienced person to make those shots with alot of confidence in there rifle.
It's a keeper, I don't think Speedgoat was boasting about his elk kill, as much as he was merely making a point in regards to your statement about not relying on your Savage for long shots.
Myself, I am a predator/varmint hunter. My time off the field consists of shoting sillouette matches and long range (1000+) matches to hone m shooting skills for my type of hunting. And yes, different folks, different strokes. However, with a slew of custom rifles in all types of actions, my absolute go to gun is my bone stock Savage 10fp. It is by far the most accurate of all my rifles and the most reliable. With the floating bolt head I have found no need to have the action blueprinted, and even with the cheesy stock, it is fully pillar bedded and works how it is supposed to. It is a guaranteed sub 1/4 moa shooter and frequently shoots under 1" @300 if I do my part. To answer the original question of what rifle he should buy on a budget of $600.00, I don't think there is any other option than a Savage topped with a quality optic.
I see too many people get hung up on the finish of Savages and immediately knock them. I am not saying that is what you are doing, but don't be so quick to knock them.
By the way, the accutrigger breaks clean out of the box at 2lbs even. I have never touched it.
My lord there are some rifle geeks up in here!!!
The only thing I know is that when I shoot my rifles, something usually dies and it tastes good on the bar-b-q. Remington 700ADL and a Weatherby Mark V. Apparently, I need to go buy me a Savage to go with them. I want them critters REALLY dead.
On that shot I dropped the elk with the first shot, which was through the gear box. I didn't have to track him for one step. It was still alive when I walked up on him so I finished him off when I got there, but I think that was more of a function of bullet performance than shot placement. Elk are big tough critters. I was using a Sierra Gameking HP and would not use that bullet again for elk because of the performance I got out of it.
I also handload quite a bit and I understand ballistics and the attenuating effects of BC's, altitude, temperature, etc. I had fired that specific load probably 50-60 times in the process of developing it alone. That was not the only shooting I did that season by any stretch. Thanks for your concern though.
I developed that load specifically for long range shooting out of that rifle because my previous experience hunting that area suggested that my opportunity for taking an animal in one of those big CO parks would be at range like that. It turned out I was right that season and I was prepared.
It wasn't a clean bore shot because I never prepare my hunting rifles that way. I typically develop a load that works, test it several times, and once it's dialed in I will clean my rifle at the range, shoot a few foulers and then pack my rifle away for the hunt. I've had much better results doing it that way. I also always try to check the zero on the rifle once I get to camp, especially if it's been a long journey getting there. Doing that, I have compete confidence that my rifle and ammunition will perform if I do my part.
I didn't use a rangefinder to check the range before the shot because I didn't have one on me. I used the old-fashioned Kentucky Windage method. I know it sounds primitive but people managed to make lots of shots like that in the past before laser rangefinders were invented. We did check the range with one the next morning though when we were packing out the meat because we were curious.
I agree with you that new hunters and infrequent shooters should not take shots like that and expect to take game, at least ethically. My original point wasn't to brag but to provide an example of what a stock Savage rifle can do in the hands of someone with some experience and practice. Even without experience and practice a Savage is more likely to shoot better out of the box than any other mass-produced rifle in its class. That's not the gospel, that's just my opinion.
Shit, lets not start a "that is too far to shoot arguement". If you have adequate equipment, the necessary skills and proper field conditions, only the guy behind the gun can say how far is too far. Certainly not someone behind a computer.
Most of us are just trying to help. Its not a too far to shoot argument. Its what will most likely lead to a first shot ethical kill. I know of a guy who has taken a elk at 955 yards. Now by no means do I justify taking that shot with most out of the box hunting rifles. This thread has definitely gotten off subject. Savages are good for the money. Remington and Winchester will hold there value more and easier to find a gunsmith to work on if you want something changed on it. Whatever gun you decide on practice practice practice. Make sure you break in the rifle barrel if you want accuracy. Just Pm anyone on what rifle to buy by what you have read or you can keep reading everyone's comments. Just my 2 cents.
Buy a used gun! I got my Mark V in 270 for about what you're willing to pay for new. Of course I stole it but if you're patient you can find some good deals. I like gunbroker.com for checking prices and gunsamerica.com for buying.
and i know it's cool to shoot an elk in the ear at 300 yards with a 22 degree angle 4.7 mph wind at 67% humidity (sneekee's dad?) - but just get any of these decent rifles and practice. shoot at the distance you feel comfortable with. you don't need .5 MOA to shoot a deer at 200 yards.
lots of good advice here from tons of guys with a LOT of experience.
i just know where to go for cheap prices. . . .
I definitely would not buy a used gun. The reason I would sell a rifle is because it doesn't shoot out of the box and I would rather buy a new rifle that will. To much of a chance buying good looking rifle that shoots like shit.
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