FO8 v. Ring

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locvetter

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    Recently I sort of wanted to get some of the new Hybrid Mutu hooks which are not yet released.
    My first thought was to have Guy at RingedHooks do it.
    T.O.T.W. shamed me into ringing them myself.
    I'd mostly ringed jigs -- bigger, and I had moved to bronze.
    Had to convince myself that little rings I silver soldered were strong. So I made a bunch without hooks
    They are strong!
    My hook ringing alligator clip rack - it spins!
    Aligator clips.JPG

    The silver soldered rings, after pickling. Used 1/32" 56% and Harris black flux
    Silver brazed rings.JPG


    I put them in my machine and pulled on a few of them. I did not break any, because I am a sissy. Once I get over 200 pounds of load, it startles me when it breaks, so I did not want to be startled, and just noted that they did not break at up to 234 lbs of load:
    234.9.JPG


    So there was a recent subthread on figure-of-eight knots - and using them because they allowed one to really pull on tuna when Mr. White the tax man was around. If these loop knots were really strong, maybe I would not need ringed hooks. Nope. My best for a best effort at a FO8 on 130# Seaguar Blue Fluorocarbon was only 53.7 pounds:
    A couple testing samples:
    FO8 samples.JPG


    Breaks seemed to be in the knot:
    FO8fil.JPG

    Only 41% of nominal strength:
    53.7.JPG



    Next step: There are too many knot tests with smaller sized lines. I need to test some of my own 3 turn Uni's and compare them to San Diego Jam's, tied by me in the 130# Seaguar Blue Label Fluoro I will be using. Stay tuned. (I have already decided against Spangler and Trilene - based on prior tests.)
     
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    RideHPD

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    You were reading my mind to a T til you mentioned the Spangler. What eliminated it as a contender, that's my go-to for everything mono/fluoro terminal.
     
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    Bill W

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    Loop knots are by nature not strong. But curious how you do with Blue Label 130# and a 3 turn uni. Think I will try that myself...
     
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    locvetter

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    You were reading my mind to a T til you mentioned the Spangler. What eliminated it as a contender, that's my go-to for everything mono/fluoro terminal.
    I also was surprised when I found it worse than the other two, and I tied it both the way John Collins showed and the way in Jeff's illustration. Understand the failure was probably high enough to not be a worry, and it is very easy to tie, but ease of tying on these four, Spangler, 3 turn Uni, Trilene and San Diego Jam, are similar for me. While it is a factor for me that the Uni is so small, I don't think I am influenced by the crookroid look of the Spangler.
     
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    RideHPD

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    I also was surprised when I found it worse than the other two, and I tied it both the way John Collins showed and the way in Jeff's illustration. Understand the failure was probably high enough to not be a worry, and it is very easy to tie, but ease of tying on these four, Spangler, 3 turn Uni, Trilene and San Diego Jam, are similar for me. While it is a factor for me that the Uni is so small, I don't think I am influenced by the crookroid look of the Spangler.

    I have to imagine it must not have been seated correctly, how different were the results?
     
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    TOTW

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    Thanks for sharing, Loc! Maybe I’ll skip that 2X8 knot.

    And by the way, did my ring coaching feel like shaming? I was going for “encouraging”!LOL
     
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    locvetter

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    Thanks for sharing, Loc! Maybe I’ll skip that 2X8 knot.

    And by the way, did my ring coaching feel like shaming? I was going for “encouraging”!LOL
    You made it interesting to step back and observe: I had geared up for silver soldering, learned to braze, practiced and tested, yet when it came to do the obvious -- ring my own hooks, it did not even enter my mind until you mentioned it. I'd been doing only jigs. You brought to my attention that I can, perhaps on occasion, be a bit focused.

    It is similar to my journey to the FG knot - but that is a different conversation.
     
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    TOTW

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    You made it interesting to step back and observe: I had geared up for silver soldering, learned to braze, practiced and tested, yet when it came do the obvious -- ring my own hooks, it did not even enter my mind until you mentioned it. I'd been doing only jigs. You brought to my attention that I can, perhaps on occasion, be a bit focused.

    It is similar to my journey to the FG knot - but that is a different conversation.

    Glad to open you to a moment of clarity! I dig your ringing tree, by the way!
    I can tell you I have far more faith in the FG than I now do in the FO8...
     
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    locvetter

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    I have to imagine it must not have been seated correctly, how different were the results?
    I cannot tell the difference, as I was pulling with one knot on one end and the challenger on the other. As I recall, while the Spangler lost every time to the SD Jam, the peak load at failure was good for all the knots. I will repeat when in the process of my tries with the 130 Seaguar, perhaps tomorrow. I'll let you know. In the meantime: The Spangler would not have been in my final four had it not surpassed several other over the last several months -- color me weird.
     
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    locvetter

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    Did you try the Erwin knot? Has work well for me, thanks Ken!
    I have not. Yet another one to try. Looks like it would be pretty fat.? Looks like a San Diego Jam but with the wraps done after going through the eye and your finger twice. Starts like a Spangler, but with SDJ wraps in stead of the two through the loops passes. Is it hard to slide down?

    It is officially past my bedtime tonight. Maybe tomorrow.
     
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    Olddog8

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    I have not. Yet another one to try. Looks like it would be pretty fat.? Looks like a San Diego Jam but with the wraps done after going through the eye and your finger twice. Starts like a Spangler, but with SDJ wraps in stead of the two through the loops passes. Is it hard to slide down?

    It is officially past my bedtime tonight. Maybe tomorrow.

    I'm on my way too but the wife is still buying Black Friday junk on line. Per my teacher Ken, I don't really sinch it down at first so it doesn't "slide down". Semi tighten, make sure lines aren't crossed, spray with water, and then pull the main line until tightened. It is bulkier than a 3 turn Uni but is a double knot that is smaller than a double San Diego. I've almost straitened a hook but haven't busted the knot yet. Worked well on 30lb with those 60lb BFT too.
     
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    shellback

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    I will bet money a sandy eggo knot will hold better than any of the rest...

    as far as stealth, I seriously doubt that tuna when feeding in a pick bite will reject a live bait because of a larger knot or the presence of a ring. if it works why change it ???
     
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    DC61

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    I will bet money a sandy eggo knot will hold better than any of the rest...

    as far as stealth, I seriously doubt that tuna when feeding in a pick bite will reject a live bait because of a larger knot or the presence of a ring. if it works why change it ???

    While a tuna may not object to the knot you tied, it would certainly reject a bait that is struggling to swim because of a larger knot tied to a hook.
     
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    shellback

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    While a tuna may not object to the knot you tied, it would certainly reject a bait that is struggling to swim because of a larger knot tied to a hook.

    bait selection, in my experience is more important to getting bit in a pick bite than almost anything else. drag on the bait can be minimized by keeping your end of the line above the water as long as possible and using the smallest size hook that wont pull when fighting the fish. in my opinion the weight of the hook used, keeping my line out of the water and a racehorse bait gets me bit. although it cant be tested, I think the drag on the bait presented by any knot is minimal.
     
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    screamingreel

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    For pure strength, it is difficult to beat a double SD jam knot in 60 lbs. or lighter mono. However, it is a huge knot. I still use it to tie all my jigs. As Bill stated previously, loop knots are weaker in general.

    For 80 lbs to 130 fluoro bait hook applications, the 3 turn Uni or Spangler are my preference due to size, strength and easy to tie.. Another reason I prefer the Spangler is it can be wrapped 2 or 3 times around the ringed hook depending on ring diameter and line diameter. I have landed many YFT over 150 lbs. and multiple cows with a ringed hook tied with a Spangler using 100-200 fluorocarbon line.

    FYI: My last tests found the Fishing Fool knot to be the strongest single line knot (up to 60 lbs.). The Fishing Fool knot is basically a uni with two loops through the hook ring. The Miller knot is also very good (for mono up to 60 lbs).

    With any knot, it is more important how well you can tie it than which knot you use.

    Have fun!

    - Jeff Burroughs
     
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    DC61

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    bait selection, in my experience is more important to getting bit in a pick bite than almost anything else. drag on the bait can be minimized by keeping your end of the line above the water as long as possible and using the smallest size hook that wont pull when fighting the fish. in my opinion the weight of the hook used, keeping my line out of the water and a racehorse bait gets me bit. although it cant be tested, I think the drag on the bait presented by any knot is minimal.

    Shellback,

    I completely agree with you in regards to bait selection and the weight of the hook. I learned that on a recent trip (thanks Mike Kang). I underestimated the importance of the size and weight of the hook. I also learned about the importance of the clump of line at the eye of the hook that we refer to as the “knot”. A smaller profile knot means there is less drag that the bait has to “pull” through the water.

    Smaller hook, low profile knot and a lively bait are the keys to getting a bite.

    And of course, one more often overlooked parts of the equation is being able to cast a sardine on a 30 sized reel.

    I am always amazed at the number of “seasoned” long range fishermen who spend so much time geeking out on gear only to kerplunk their bait at the corner of the stern. Learning to cast will be the best thing a person can do to enhance his chances of getting bit.

    Putting everything together makes me feel like I have a good chance of getting bit.
     
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    shellback

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    Shellback,

    I completely agree with you in regards to bait selection and the weight of the hook. I learned that on a recent trip (thanks Mike Kang). I underestimated the importance of the size and weight of the hook. I also learned about the importance of the clump of line at the eye of the hook that we refer to as the “knot”. A smaller profile knot means there is less drag that the bait has to “pull” through the water.

    Smaller hook, low profile knot and a lively bait are the keys to getting a bite.

    And of course, one more often overlooked parts of the equal is being able to cast a sardine on a 30 sized reel.

    I am always amazed at the number of “seasoned” long range fishermen who spend so much time geeking out on gear only to kerplunk their bait at the corner of the stern. Learning to cast will be the best thing a person can do to enhance his chances of getting bit.

    Putting everything together makes me feel like I have a good chance of getting bit.
     
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    shellback

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    aint it great when all those factors you mentioned come together at once? it happens rarely for me but paying my dues and practice greatly increases my chances.
    I learn a lot from reading this forum and from all the posters. hope this place and long range fishing stays lively and viable
     
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