Flat Fall, butterfly and knife jigs.

Discussion in 'San Diego Long Range fishing Reports' started by RichG, Nov 30, 2015.

  1. Sgtsilbaugh

    Sgtsilbaugh "Keep calm and.........FISH ON!!!!"

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    Check out the ones that Charkbait makes. They're the only ones I've seen with circle hooks, the use the heaviest duty hollow braid and they use glue before the shrink wrap. Insanely beast mode! I think they suit 200-300 gram jigs and up!

    https://www.charkbait.com/cs/CharkBait-Assist Hooks.htm
     
  2. Sgtsilbaugh

    Sgtsilbaugh "Keep calm and.........FISH ON!!!!"

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    Damn, I just saw your earlier posts on Charkbait s hooks Steve! I guess I'm late to the party. Either way, they're bad ass hooks, better than anything else I've seen locally
     
  3. Steve K

    Steve K Hey, I'm gettin' bit...

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    That's what got me headed down this road. And, a few stories from guys who have either had their assist hooks chewed off or their mainline chewed through. Trying to avoid that. When a tuna eats a bait, it just flares out its gills and sucks it in. Hopefully this will allow a good solid hookup and we can win one. I'd rather just get the one or two hookups and win than get hooked up several times and lose.
     
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  4. JohnTFT

    JohnTFT Insomniac

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    If you are making your own assist hooks, live bait hooks are an excellent choice.

    Larger sizes 8-10/0. Brand doesn't matter. They have nice short shanks and are very compact.

    Extremely strong as well.
     
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  5. Steve K

    Steve K Hey, I'm gettin' bit...

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    Seems to be the norm, short shank J hooks on Kevlar. I just want to try the large Circle hook to try to ward off those nasty teeth.
     
  6. johndtuttle

    johndtuttle Angler/Client

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    Circle hooks will work on any artificial bait. Just don't set the hook, the fish will do the work.
     
  7. Bill W

    Bill W tunaholic

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    Circles are used on trolling lures in tournaments. Granted not a perfect match. On a casting jig for wahoo it would be interesting since wahoo grab the jig like a dog bone. If a swivel is added at the hook the circle can have a chance to rotate. I have fished casting jigs for wahoo before and it works well, might try it with a swivel
     
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  8. johndtuttle

    johndtuttle Angler/Client

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    It's more complicated than that as you also have to take into account how many J hooks are spit out versus the rarity that a circle gets spit. If a circle hook gets set, it stays far better.

    It also depends on the lure type, ie, soft head Mold Crafts versus iron etc.

    However, I would not say that circles are as effective for trolling as J hooks, only that they will catch fish very effectively, particularly for species like Bill Fish. But Wahoo are probably the worst for success with circles, in my experience.

    Using them on jigs is an excellent way to prevent chew offs, at the cost of some bites being missed.
     
  9. DannyNoonan

    DannyNoonan Smarter than I look...

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    Now would be a good time for a group hug...
     
  10. Steve K

    Steve K Hey, I'm gettin' bit...

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    Time for a little Kumbaya? :)
     
  11. Sgtsilbaugh

    Sgtsilbaugh "Keep calm and.........FISH ON!!!!"

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    Fags!
    Lol

    No gay stuff in here!
     
  12. crabdancer

    crabdancer Kook

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    There are some serious disconnects here around some really good points.

    The definition of 'moving lure' is a good place to start. No one in their right mind would fish a circle on a PL68 or any other jig that gets bit on the retrieve (but lord knows we've got our stories about getting bit on the sink). People fish bait with a circle in the shoulder and connect on the long soak wind in a lot too.

    Speaking from experience, the flat fall and flat side slow pitch jigs (not speed jigs) get bit on the sink most of the time, so what's the difference between a chunk of metal with a circle hook and a chunk of meat with a circle hook? They both get bit going away from you.

    That's the difference.

    I like where Steve K is going with this. It's important to understand that the different styles of vertical jig fish differently. A lot of good anglers got chewed off nasty on the flat falls this year because the fish ate them like a bait and choked em. I'm not saying the circle would prevent that 100%, but I'll take any advantage I can get. We're still trying to figure out where these jigs that people have used for more than a decade around the world fit into our scene and we learned a lot real fast this year.

    I would be confident fishing slow pitch jigs with a wide-ish gap circle (not a Mutu for sure). I don't set, I just grind down. If I get bit on the grind, I just keep grinding.

    Speaking of grinding, how's that group hug going?
     
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  13. Rodless_Jim

    Rodless_Jim I've posted enough I should edit this section

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    Yes, there are issues that revolve around how fast a bait or a jig is moving, but the key point is this: if you are using a circle, the line has to find its way to the corner of the fish's jaw before you wind the hook out of the fish's mouth. Plain and simple. Well, there can be an advantage to bringing a circle hook tight a bit more slowly...give the hook a better chance to turn itself in the right attitude if it doesn't automatically. But the physics of the situation basically dictate that if the fish is headed in any direction except directly towards you, the hook will set where you want it to. And in theory that should work with jigs, fast or slow.

    As long as the line makes it to the corner of the jaw, it will pull the hook there, and you're good. Of course, in this case we're talking about that short piece of kevlar line that attaches the hook to the jig, which complicates things just a little.

    As an aside, a few years ago I was reef fishing out of Key West, and while the other anglers were catching Yellowtail and Mangrove Snapper in the mid-water column, I was pulling Red, Gag, and Goliath Grouper off the reef near the bottom. By law we were using circle hooks, and I was mostly using live Pinfish for bait. I caught a lot of grouper those three days, including a ton of 50lb Goliaths...and it was the oddest thing. Every one of those fish was hooked in the top lip, dead center...and I mean dead center. Good hook sets all. But what struck me was why there, and not the corner of the jaw? The answer was obvious. Those fish specifically grab a bait and swim straight down. The shape of their mouths encourages the line to run in a channel along the roof and out the top lip...so when the hook grabbed, it grabbed there. But those grouper don't swim laterally at all in relation to the angler. And a grouper's mouth is a far cry from that of a tuna or a wahoo (or yellowtail, seabass, dorado, etc.)

    I believe that the right circle hook will work quite well for flat fall jigs. Miss a bite or two? Maybe. Perhaps even probably. But I bet the hook up ratio will be at least 80% of the hook up ratio with a live bait assist hook. And because there will be fewer chew offs, I bet the bite-to-land ratio will end up being as good as with a J-hook...or close to it.

    Do I have any evidence to back up my opinion? Only a very little anecdotal evidence, nothing particularly persuasive. This is one of those times that, when faced with what is (for me) a new technique, I look at it and say to myself "it stands to reason that..." I am like that sometimes, as Harddrive can tell tell you (I talk about fishing more with Harddrive than with anyone else).

    I will say this, though: I am going to give myself the best opportunity I can to be successful. I am going to make up assist hooks with some circles, yes, but just a few. And I will give them three strikes...maybe only two. If I am getting bit and missing fish, I will switch hooks fast. I will also have ready assist hooks made with live bait hooks. And my live bait hooks will be VMC Dynamics. By the time Excel turns for home, I'll have a definite opinion, one way or another.

    This is going to be fun!
     
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  14. RichG

    RichG Well-Known "Member"

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    Jim raises a good point here. How does a specific fish take the bait. I know tuna usually inhale fin bait and wahoo bite them in half first. So one must wonder if Tuna inhale the jigs as well. I remember seeing a PL 68 stuck in the mouth of a big tuna on the bank and it had to be cut out. Also a knife jig with a treble hook at the bottom. Very interesting points being presented. Let us know how the circle hook works.
     
  15. Olddog8

    Olddog8 Well-Known "Member"

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    I have had the opposite experience fishing flat falls. I didn't keep a tally, but a large percentage (most)of the Bluefin and some of the little yellowfin I've caught on these jigs was on the retrieve. My buddy and I were the only ones catching bluefin on one trip fishing them like yo yo jigs, then everyone caught on and started catching. I even tried a chrome 6x for nothing, switched back to the flat fall and nailed one first retrive.
     
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  16. seriola_killer

    seriola_killer Dalurker's #1 Fan

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    Pardon my ignorance on this, but wouldn't using a crimped wire assist hook system work for this application?
     
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  17. vegasandre

    vegasandre I've posted enough I should edit this section

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    Same results here. I get bit mostly on the retrieve whether its yft, bft or YT with the flat falls -80% of the time and pretty much 90-100% with the butterfly/flat sided style jigs.
     
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  18. big dog62

    big dog62 Well-Known "Member"

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    Sometimes, very hard to detect a strike on the drop. Took me a while to realize what I was missing on the way down.
     
  19. Rodless_Jim

    Rodless_Jim I've posted enough I should edit this section

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    Yup, and I am really bad at it. That has me a bit worried.
     
  20. matta57

    matta57 hack

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    ya, likewise. its hard (for me) to get the lure to drop freely while maintaining total "feel" over what is happening.
     

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