FG knot failure??

Discussion in 'Fishing Chit Chat' started by dtf, May 12, 2019.

  1. dtf

    dtf Well-Known "Member"

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    Just got of a 16 day trip in which I had three failures on my fg knots. Line pulled out of connection after moderate pull once and 24# drag twice on 100# fluoro tied to 100 lb spectra.
    Have tide that knot several dozens time in garage and never been able to break knot or have it slip. Always been the fluoro or mono that was breaking.

    VERY CONFUSED, any help or suggestions other than using another knot.
     
  2. r8rs4lf

    r8rs4lf I've posted enough I should edit this section

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    That's some pretty thick line to try to cinch down tight. IMO, the FG knot is make or break according to how tightly it can be cinched. Being 100# Spectra and flouro, I can only imagine how hard it would be to cinch it down tight.
     
  3. nu2reels

    nu2reels Well-Known "Member"

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    How many successes to failure ratio? Did they all fail?

    Better yet, tried tying after a few drinks? o_O
     
  4. jiggyn

    jiggyn Do you even fish?

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    I finish mine with a rizzuto finish
    This has it pulling from both ends almost fail proof
     
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  5. dtf

    dtf Well-Known "Member"

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    Not so sure the rizzuto has an thing to do with knot strength, just a way of finishing the knot.
    I do a reverse rizzuto on my FG knots.
     
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  6. yessokk

    yessokk Well-Known "Member"

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    If brands of fluorocarbon were changed or new fluoro was purchased for the trip the new fluor could have a harder surface. In which case the spectra did not cinch down into the leader adequately. Or if using the original fluoro that was tested at home the following is most likely the problem.

    The slipping of the spectra wraps off the leader is caused by one of two things. Or both.
    1. The cinch down was not adequate. That knot has to be cinched down very very hard. You MUST use cinching tools, and pull as hard as you possibly can. You cannot apply enough force with just your hands. Gloves or no gloves. The surface of Fluoro is much harder then mono and it takes a lot of force to get the spectra to imbed itself in the leader. This is the most likely cause of the slippage. And always do this before the tags are cut.

    2. Too few wraps with the spectra. If there are not enough wraps there is insufficient friction of the spectra to the leader to create the desired gripping force. Would recommend increasing the wraps by at leasts a third. Have had to go as high as 20 wraps or higher. 20 is actually a good place to start.
    Not all fluoro has the same surface hardness. It is very difficult to determine hardness by feel. All though it is sometimes apparent.

    Also to get a good test of the knot hand pulling with cinching tools is not enough. Force equal to at least 50% - 75% of the lowest line rating is necessary.

    IMG_0271.JPG Have tested the FG many times and failure has always been corrected by one of the above.
    Hope this helps.
    Walt

    PS: Ck out Gee Bee's video link below, excellent.
    The same guys shows the best way to tie the FG. He is a bit winded but he shows the best way to tie it. There our other methods to construct the FG but testing has shown the method below to be the strongest and most consistent.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  7. red_teppin

    red_teppin Member

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    If your knots are good at home, sounds like it’s coming loose on the water.

    Does the knot go in and out of your guides?
     
  8. geebee

    geebee Member

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    When u cinch it up prior to adding the rizzuto finish - pay close attention to the color change - knot pullers highly recommended at that point

     
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  9. geebee

    geebee Member

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    At the end of the day either we have confidence in our knot - or not...
     
  10. red_teppin

    red_teppin Member

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    Learn the Rizzuto finish

    In my opinion, you need at least 40-50% of the lines rating in tension to seat the knot correctly. For 100+, I basically pull as hard as I can without going crazy; a bit less on the Rizzuto.

    Calibrate your hands for 100lb. Attach a piece of 100lb spectra to scale and pull or, attach it to something that weights 50lbs and lift (6 gallons of water is almost exactly 50lbs). I bet its more than you thought.

    The sequence of tightening is also important. What works for me:
    1. FG weave 15-20 turns
    2. 5-6 turn Rizzuto
    3. Firm, but not full, tightening Rizzutto.
    4. Firm, but not full, tightening FG.
    5. Full tightening Rizzuto
    6. Full tightening FG

    The last hard pull is between the main spectra line and leader like fishing.
     
  11. nu2reels

    nu2reels Well-Known "Member"

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    Oh my, word play LOL
     
  12. mike mitchell

    mike mitchell Member

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    A good craftsman always blames his tools! That being said. was the failure on the same line? Did you check your guides, your knot may have been damaged. After your first failure did you seek help? The assumption is that the failure was human error, do you believe it was?
     
  13. T.O.T.W.

    T.O.T.W. Time On The Water

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    So hard to know what's going on without seeing you tie it. That video above is a great start to getting it right. Also, wet it and cinch it TIGHT before stacking on the finishing knots or Rizzuto, and then cinch that finish knot down, too. You should see a color change in the spectra on the weave portion if it's tight enough.
     
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  14. dtf

    dtf Well-Known "Member"

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    Want to thank all above for advice and suggestions. The big problem is I tie the knot as all have suggester
    I'm not King Kong but with a good set of pullers I pull the line to a darn heavy tension, translucent almost. Using a reverse risotto to finnsh the knot and bury the shaved down end of mono stub with a touch of glue on the risotto.
    At least I still remember how to tie the Tony Pena
     
  15. Let em eat 74

    Let em eat 74 Well-Known "Member"

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    The common failure I’ve seen with both the fg and RP/John Colins is not the knot itself, but length of topshot. If the topshot is the wrong length, the knot winds up near the rod tip during the final endgame. This is the one place that the line has the most angle and creates uneven stretch in the mono or flouro that creates a failure. Could this perhaps be your issue?

    To me it sounds as if you have the knot down pat, so I’m looking at other things
     
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  16. RideHPD

    RideHPD Enthusiastic Idiot Rookie

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    Not enough tension when
    This is a good note for using the FG knot in general. My bait rods have 25-50' of fluoro on them tied with an FG knot; when the knot gets close to the guides I drop the rod tip towards the fish a bit and wind it through at least the top third of the guides, acid wrap is pretty nice here as there are a lot fewer guides the knot goes through. If the fish tries to take line again, I drop the rod again until the knot is out of the guides. Partially to reduce wear on the finishing knots, partially to avoid stress concentrations/bending stresses over the knot.

    Were these failed knots tied on the boat? My guess is that the wraps were not woven with enough tension on the braid. The thicker the diameter of the leader, the thicker diameter of the braid, the harder the leader, the smoother the braid, the more tension is needed to seat the wraps into the leader. It doesn't matter how hard you cinch the knot down, if there isn't enough tension applied to the wraps beforehand, or if the tension is lost, you will only cinch down the bottom 5 or so wraps. In this case, the load is only being transferred through these wraps, and the knot is not sound. It will still be pretty damn strong, but will get you in the long run with heavy drag. 100+ plus fluoro and 100lb braid, especially hollow, and it takes a lot of tension to get the wraps to seat. IMO Powerpro is actually really exceptional for tying the FG knot bc of how rough it is, and this shines through even more so in heavier tests.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
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