Crimping Heavy Monofilament with Nicopress (Initial Results)

ShadowX

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ShadowX, out of curiosity what tension tester did you buy?

Chatillon TCD200SS. Its and older tension tester, but its built like a tank. This was back when people actually make housings out of steel and welded them together. The ones today are more modern, but corners has been cut to make them cheaper to produce. I completely dismantled this unit from top down and rebuild it. Greased everything and swapped out all the screws with stainless screws. I even swapped out the motor last night to a faster version since the SS model was a way too slow.
 
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Mr. DRE

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    Jesus H. Christ! You guys are waaaay to smart. I bought a cheap $50 crimper on Amazon and went to work on my leaders. Knock on wood none have failed as of yet.
     
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    cozenone

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    I had to skip through some of this but if your really worried about the main line slip...Why not just use two sleeves or a long sleeve with double crimp? Personally I crimp and throw...let her rip
     
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    ShadowX

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    I don't want to overstep the OP's research. I finally got the parts and was able to fix the motorized tester yesterday.

    The motorized tension tester has opened my eyes completely on my fishing knots. Knots that I assumed were good at the 20-40lb range were not even close to the rated strength. Its extremely touchy and if the cinching is not 100%, the strength can drop by 25% easily. Some knots are less sensitive than others. Knots like the Springer knot that I have been using for years is no where near as good as the Trilene knots. I spent about two days tying at least 50-100 different knots for fishing hooks with mono and found out the cinching process is the most important step. Its a the difference between a 75% knot and a 100% knot. In fact, the only knot that was able to reach the 100% mark is the Trilene knot.

    Its still a work in progress, but the tester does not lie. You either have a good knot or you don't. You can think your knot is the greatest, but until you put it to the test, the differences are night and day.

    I will try to replicate the OP's research on crimp connections once I'm done testing my knots. I'm glad he pushed me to the point of getting my own test setup to verify the knots and the crimps. This setup also measures the elongation of the line as it stretches. Its surprising how much mono stretches during my preliminary tests. I use a very slow 1.25 inch per minute rate to get a nice steady even pull.

    Here is my setup:
    1633150396446.png





    1633150587470.png



    1633150604213.png
     
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    ShadowX

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    CUrious, have you tried using different brand mono and seeing if your results change at the same weight ratings?

    Not yet. I only had about a one full day to play around with the tester. I was using Eagle Claw 20 lb since its the cheapest mono I had to use. I chose it because it was breaking at almost precisely the same weight between 19.4 to 20.2 lbs. It was consistent enough to be used as a test case.

    I will plan to test other line weights and brands later on. I was trying to take away the human errors with the knots. I gotten to the point where I was consistent with some knots. I even tested cases where it was cinched dry or with water to reduce mono damage.

    I also realize that techniques shown on Youtube videos need to be adjusted slightly. For instance, on the Springer knot, to cinch the knot, the instruction is to hold the tag end and slide it up. If I did that, the line would break at around 15lb consistently. If I modified the technique slightly by tugging on both ends slowly and not allow the mono to bind, the line strength goes up to 17.4lbs. Its small little tweaks like this that is not obvious until you have a line tester to validate the knot right after you tie it.

    Vast majority of the knots like the Springer, Uni, San Diego Jam, Palomar all broke between 15-17.4 lbs. All of them never reached 100% knot strength of at least 19.4 lbs. Only the Trilene knot has went to 19.4 to 20.0 lbs. In fact, the line break was on the line and not even the knot. Even then, the knot can break at 16lbs at times if I didn't cinch the knot properly and allow the mono to get damaged. However, I have tested the knot to 100% strength in about 6 out of 10 tests. The Trilene knot has impressed me the most.

    Another thing to note is that the knots depends a lot on the diameter of the ring that its tied to. On a fishing hook, the Springer knot would hold tight and not slip. On the other hand, when I tie it on a larger ring with smooth surfaces, there is not enough grip to hold it in place and it starts to slip. These are just personal observations. I will eventually record data, but I'm just testing to get more consistency with the knots first. Now I realize that I need to use a different knot for tying to surface jigs or other lures with a larger ring, or use a knot that works well for both.

    No matter how great you think you are with tying knots, the tester does not lie. Small mistakes will drop the knot strength by 25% or more. The important data seems to be the minimum strength. With certain knots, it will hold at a minimum level and has not broken below that level. I intentionally made some bad knots with line burns and it still broke above that minimum level.
     
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    woodfish330

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  • Aug 14, 2012
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    Two thing to consider. Triline knots strength comes from its initial "double pass" ..... try using that though for your own knot "modification" experiments. In the back of your mind..... lol.

    Second..... in all my years of scientific knot and connection testing.... I've seen MANY little things, cause a great deal of variation in both straight mono breaks.... and knot strength testing.

    Baseline..... you know what it is..... minimizing control variations to gain conisistancy. Establishing the " yardstick" so to speak. Recognize.... if YOU .... moisten EVERY KNOT you test.... with your own saliva... your asking for inconsistencies. Actually did study on the effects of "ever changing" PH and acidity ....in OUR OWN SALIVA....on knot strengths. Up to 27% .... consistantly.... on the same knot.

    Now don't get me wrong..... when each of us is tying a knot..... PLEASE MAKE IT WET before "cinching". Sometimes thats just licking it right? Do what you've got to do. BUT KNOW IF YOUR SALIVA is effecting your testing? Success rates? Should you just dip it in a cup of water.... bait tank... instead? MAYBE!!!

    Could it be really "Benificial".... to KNOW you can REGAIN that "statically" lost percentage.... by simply using another knot "lubricant".... besides our own saliva.

    Remember......That's EVERY KNOT you tie... bar NONE! Every knot you test. Try your own experiments.... its illuminating. 10 breaks saliva. 10 breaks water. ALL THE SAME KNOT AND LINE TYPE AND BRAND. Let me know what happens. Good luck.
     
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    ShadowX

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    Two thing to consider. Triline knots strength comes from its initial "double pass" ..... try using that though for your own knot "modification" experiments. In the back of your mind..... lol.

    Second..... in all my years of scientific know and connection testing.... I've seen MANY little things cause a great deal of variation in both straight mono breaks.... and knot strength testing.

    Baseline..... you know what it is..... minimizing control variations to gain conisistancy. Establishing the " yardstick" so to speak. Recognize.... if YOU .... moisten EVERY KNOT you test.... with your own saliva... your asking for inconsistencies. Actually did study on the effects of "ever changing" PH and acidity ....in OUR OWN SALIVA....on knot strengths. Up to 27% .... consistantly.... on the same knot.

    Now don't get me wrong..... when each of us is tying a knot..... PLEASE MAKE IT WET before "cinching". Sometimes thats just licking it right? Do what you've got to do. BUT KNOW IF YOUR SALIVA is effecting your testing? Success rates? Should you just dip it in a cup of water.... bait tank... in stead? Would it be really "Benificial".... to KNOW you can REGAIN that "statically" lost percentage.... by simply using another knot "lubricant".... besides our own saliva.

    Remember......That's EVERY KNOT you tie... bar NONE! Every knot you test. Try your own experiments.... its illuminating. 10 breaks saliva. 10 breaks water. ALL THE SAME KNOT AND LINE TYPE AND BRAND. Let me know what happens. Good luck.

    I have actually done that. I added double pass on the uni, the San Diego Jam and a few other knots. It didn't change any of the results in a meaningful amount. It sometimes increases the knot strength by around 10%, but the additional loop creates more chances for the line to cross and create a weak point. There was a couple of samples where the knots end up weaker than a single loop. However, they all broke at less than 100% line strength.

    I think the key is not the double line, but when pressure is applied to the main line, the knot cinches on the line itself. After many experiments, I believe when the line goes under the double loop on the Trilene knot, it cinches better and does not slip so the knot doesn't tighten up on the main line when the pressure is increased.

    The problem up to now is that I had no quantitative way to measure the affects the variations have on the knot strength. My only test was whether the line broke or not when fighting a fish. The great part about this tester is that its very repeatable and the only real variation is the knot itself. With manual testers, there are variations on how the line is tensioned in every test and that adds an additional variable to the experiment.

    The vast majority of my tests at about 80% are dry. I only added the element of lube to see if the knot strength increased. In fact, it did increase slightly. Instead of breaking at let's say 16.4lbs, it broke at 17.2lbs. It wasn't meaningful enough for me to say that it was caused only by the lube. However, I did notice a slight 5-10% increase in knot strength. I believe the water reduced the friction during cinching and allowed the knot to settle when its under tension.

    Even without any lubrication, the Trilene knot hit 100% line strength multiple times. The key is to cinch it slowly so it doesn't bind on itself and cause a weak spot in the line. Basically, when you cinch the line down, if you feel any resistance, don't force it. As soon as the mono rub on itself under pressure, you can lose 25% of the knot strength right there.

    In some knots, you can see the line tension causes the knot to settle. For instance, in the Springer knot, you can see the tag end twist slightly when under tension. On other knots like the San Diego Jam or the uni knot, the knot itself tightens, but the tag end doesn't twist.

    I just think the Trilene knot is superior because it doesn't make the knot tighten up on the main line as tension is applied. It may do that slightly in the beginning if the knot is loose, but once it settles, the knot seems to stay in shape instead of a death grip around the main line that is being pulled. I believe that line going under the original two wraps is creating a friction point so the line doesn't transmit the tension along to the wraps around the main line that causes it to grip tighter around the main line when the tension increases. That is the secret for the knot to hold 100% line strength.

    Here is a close up of a Trilene knot I just pulled tested a few minutes ago. Notice the line wrapped around the main line is not even tight around the main line (green arrow)? The strength was when the main line wrapped around the hook eye and it tighten up against the line that went under the two loops on the eye (red arrow). This line just broke at 20.0lbs. The break point wasn't even at the knot itself. The line broke about half inch lower than the knot.

    1633214423151.png



    This is the modified San Diego Jam knot with two loops around the eye hook. I had to redo this loop twice in a microscope to make sure it was perfect before I tested it.

    1633214882728.png


    It broke at 18.6 lbs which is a big improvement over the 17.4 lb that it broke at before. However, I had to tie this knot very carefully to make sure it doesn't loop over itself. Even then, it broke at less than 100% line strength (20 lbs). It definitely broke at the knot and the pieces flew off.

    1633214932948.png
     
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    ShadowX

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    I modified the San Diego Jam knot slightly by making two changes:
    1) Added two loops around the fishing hook ring
    2) Run the end of the tag end through the two loops before I cinch the lines (similar to a Trilene knot)

    I took some pictures before I did some pull tests. I also stopped at 15.2lb to take some pictures of the knot as reference before it broke. I continued the test until the knot broke.

    Results:
    The line broke at 20.6 lbs of tension. The knot held 100% and the line broke instead of the knot. I would consider this a 100% knot. Normally, my line breaks at 20.0lbs, but since I paused the test, the line may have relaxed slightly during that pause to allow it to break at a slightly higher tension. Since my max line test up to now was around 20.2lbs, the break at 20.6 lbs seems within reasonable limits.

    Conclusions:
    The knot definitely improved in strength with the addition of the loop around the ring and also by putting the tag end through the loops. I believe its the tag end through the loops which allowed the knot to reach 100% strength. This is definitely a knot I like better than the Trilene. The Trilene knot takes some patience to get the loops around the line to cinch up properly. The San Diego jam is much easier to cinch up and the only difference is adding the initial loop and sliding the tag end through the loop. Its almost like a hybrid of the San Diego and the Trilene knot.

    Edit: I ran some more tests and its still a touchy knot. There is a lot that can go wrong with the cinching process that affects the strength. The Trilene knot is definitely simpler and more reliable. Almost every pull test I perform with Trilene is at 100% line strength. The key is to cinch the line slowly and the loops around the main line doesn't have to be super tight that it cuts the main line. Nice and snug and the line will pull at 100% line strength over and over and over again.


    Original knot before pull test:
    1633216338958.png


    Paused at 15.2lb:

    1633216413973.png

    1633216458240.png


    Broke at 20.6 lbs.
    1633216011820.png


    1633216077103.png
     
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    ShadowX

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    I've been looking to find an easy to tie knot with very good breaking strength using 20 lb line. So far, nothing beats the Trilene knot in terms of strength. I've gotten good at tying the knot and have been getting consistent 100% strength pulls where the knot stays intact after the line breaks.

    As for the easy to tie knot, I found two good candidates. One is called the Davy knot and the other is the Double Davy knot. The Davy knot is very easy to tie and has averaged about 17.52 lbs breaking strength with a standard deviation of 1.21 lbs. The Double Davy knot has averaged 18.45 lbs with a standard deviation of 1.08 lbs. The standard deviation just tells you how far the data is away from the average. In this case, the majority of the data are around 5% from the average. They are both very consistent knots and easy to cinch down. I have been very impressed by both of these two knots.

    I took over 40 pull tests per knot type and the data is very consistent. There are some that falls lower, but I attributed to human error. Even then, the lowest values are around 14-15 lbs which is acceptable. Most of the lower rated knots are early in the test when I'm still learning how to cinch it down properly. Some of the lower values at the end is because I was getting tired and some of the knots were sloppier when I get tired. These tests takes hours to complete.

    I'm definitely going to use these knots since they are quick and easy to tie. The Trilene knot is not too difficult, but does take a little more patience to get it right. I wouldn't consider either of these knots a 100% knot. At best its around 90%-95% of the line strength. All the knots broke at the knot itself during testing.

    These two knots has far surpassed the Palomar, San Diego Jam and even the Uni knots. So far, those other knots broke at around 16.5 lbs average so that is around 75-80% line strength. The knots are still very good, but it does not stand out as superior knots since its more complicated and the breaking strength is lower. I might do more tests on those other knots and record the data, but none of the common knots impressed me. There is something about the Davy design where it cinches down on the mono and takes away the stress on the knot and main lines.

    I would be testing them on fluorocarbon and other line types next. The 20 lb mono line was around .016 in diameter. I will be trying them on heavier line later. The results may be different with heavier lines. If you have any specific knots you want me to try, let me know and the link to the knot.

    I'm just providing this data in case you guys are interested.


    Davy:

    Double Davy:


    1633513338419.png


    1633513346676.png
     
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