Constitution and the Todos Santos closure

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carcass

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Apr 25, 2009
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scott
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None
If all this is based on an "unwritten rule" then maybe the rules need to be written down so formal fines banishments, or whatever can be effectively enforced. To me it would be hard to enforce something that doesn't really exist.

It's sad that it may come down to this, but if one side continues to abuse the priviledge, then something needs to be done. If there is no satisfaction with any "in-house" sanctions then maybe it is something that needs to be looked in to.
 

Carl

Bridesmaid,,,,,,,Again
Nov 29, 2004
20,370
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Carl
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everyone elses
If (and now when), the rules get written down, do you think they will be more or less restrictive than the gentlemans understanding? What is unclear about a Navy boat ordering you out of an area? Why would you go back after being ordered out by the Navy? Why risk the potentially harsher rules?
If you were the Mexican authority charged with writing down the rules; what would your mindset be after being treated this way?
 
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PoolMan

7 'dines short of a full scoop
Nov 7, 2005
1,516
470
83
La Costa
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Chuck G
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8' sabot #69
I'm not trying to support the sportboats at all costs but there is still alot of this left in the gray. I think the captain of the Constitution said that they weren't "kicked" or escorted out. Just that suddenly everyone moved back to the correct side of the "line". So far no one has clearly described the actual moment of the "encounter". Did a Navy boat enter the area? Was there a general warning via radio to be more respectful of the gentleman's agreement? Is the original agreement clear (it seems that not everyone even knows what is agreed to) enough for people to be able to abide by it. Has the issue already been worked out between SAC and the Mexican authorities to allow the boats in for this bite or to fish the area in general for pelagics? Has the line already been redefined for the sporties and they are playing by the new rules? Hopefully someone can address some of these questions in the near future.
 

a238killfish

killfish
Feb 22, 2008
395
117
43
san diego,CA
Name
dan
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24'wellcraft center console"that's my boy!"
get the law written and explained clearly to those that fish below the border. when sporties get their documentation give them a map with clear bounderies and the coordinates and have them sign off on it. if something applies to private boaters show them the map and have them sign off on it. make it clear on the penalties. patrol it with some 25' high speed boats and first time board them and inspect the vessel from bilge to anchor light. that ought to take about six hours. have the boat sign there ticket and let them on their way. after a trip like that, the passengers won't want to ride there again. second time, revoke document for a calender year and a stiff fine. third time , drop the hammer, you make it up. a gentlemans agreement is fine if everyone is a upstanding guy. but we all have dealt with that guy that is full of excuses and continously tries to burn you. you can spell it out for them and the next day they give you this puzzled look and if you call them on it they turn into a dickhead .we could try to convince people to not fish this or that boat but they have their regulars that don't care anyone else just" get me on the fish skipper" and they get back to the dock and they'll rub your nose in it how they and their great skipper got them on the fish and you should have come with them while you kept to the agreement and struggled to catch one fish. my two cents anyways. would hate see everyone suffer cause of knuckleheads.
 

Surfdoc

The finger in the Dyke!
Mar 7, 2003
1,026
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Stan
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Mx Panga, MOJAC
I think Carl nailed this one!

Be careful what you ask for, the "gentlemans agreement" has worked for years. If you write things into a contract, why not just state from the South Coronados to Punta Colenett are closed to non mexican sport boats???

Seems like a "few" or mostly ONE skipper has said Fuckyou to the Mexican fisherman.

DaTD's is coming up.... may be a time to let these skippers know they are shitting in everyones backyard.

Again... watch what ya ask for.
 
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H

hawgboy

And to think once upon time all the SD fleet had to do was anchor up on the Coronado flats all spring and have 2000+ Yellows a day for dock totals waiting for the Albacore to show. How is it we always think its better than it is, or was ? All the talk is El Nino now, that is just an event that will expose the weakness of fish stocks, but maybe give you a chance to catch a Yellowtail off Laguna Beach or Malibu ?
 

tat2fishead

TAT2 FISH HEAD
Apr 6, 2010
24
0
1
INLAND EMPIRE
Name
BG
Boat
my buddies boats
so these boats are not even sopose to be down there fishing this sucks but nobody should disrepect any areas unwrittin or written can u get in trouble being on these trips ??????sometimes guys like myself r new at this and we dont know any better u know how would u determine what boat to go on and if u did want to fish that area how would u go about it ?thanks sorry for all the ?????? like i said im new at this.
 

Surfdoc

The finger in the Dyke!
Mar 7, 2003
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Hey Gus.... no worries on the questions.

As a passenger you would not leagally be held accountable for where the boat goes.
If the boat was stopped or boarded you could be inconvienced at most for having to stop fishing.

90% of the boats out of Seaforth and the big three (H&M, Pt Loma and Fishermans landing) are very good reputable boats that play by the rules, written and unwritten.

When your ready to pul the trigger on a trip, post a thread and let us know. I'm sure you'll get all the info you'll need to have an awsome fishing experiance!
 

tat2fishead

TAT2 FISH HEAD
Apr 6, 2010
24
0
1
INLAND EMPIRE
Name
BG
Boat
my buddies boats
Hey Gus.... no worries on the questions.

As a passenger you would not leagally be held accountable for where the boat goes.
If the boat was stopped or boarded you could be inconvienced at most for having to stop fishing.

90% of the boats out of Seaforth and the big three (H&M, Pt Loma and Fishermans landing) are very good reputable boats that play by the rules, written and unwritten.

When your ready to pul the trigger on a trip, post a thread and let us know. I'm sure you'll get all the info you'll need to have an awsome fishing experiance!
Cool thanks man was just woundering been a couple boats out there alraedy good crews good people so far for me!!
 

Swarthy Dago

Coredor de las olas
Aug 20, 2008
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dude, you still wearin those shorts ?
 

MikeyLikesIt

did you say FISHING ???
Feb 24, 2003
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If (and now when), the rules get written down, do you think they will be more or less restrictive than the gentlemans understanding? What is unclear about a Navy boat ordering you out of an area? Why would you go back after being ordered out by the Navy? Why risk the potentially harsher rules?
If you were the Mexican authority charged with writing down the rules; what would your mindset be after being treated this way?


kinda like contract language. Some things are written vaguely (non-specific) for a reason.....the reason being that the rule or language can be interpreted on a case by case basis.

BUT: the sword cuts both ways......
'
 

RUCKUS MX

Newbie
Apr 12, 2010
1
0
0
Ensenada Baja MX
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Bernardo
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37' Workboat
Ive Seen US charter boats Trow Away plenty of small bottom fish Just because they Want to respect the limits but of course Taking the Big ones. And the big deal is about some of the Gringos not showing any respect to us in own our country.
 
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yellowdog

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Jul 6, 2007
512
7
18
O'side
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Bill
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20' Seapro
hi joe we know some of you guys play by the rules but not all of you, yesterday i saw 4 us boats inside todos santos , new loan, aztec,prowler and again sea adventure II, the one hoo starts all, and i dont see to much respect for us,I am the president of the sport fishing fleet organisation here in ensenada, and if something is wrong i talk right a way whit our membersand if they dont untherstand and this afects all of us we stop this boat , company, this issue starts a weeck ago and still some guys dont untherstand what respect is, we are not again private boaters and hoo respects the law and is legaly doing this activity is if this problem continues we are goin to take this to higer mexican autorithies,thanks for untherstand this
We appreciate our PRIVILEGE of fishing in Mexico. I hope the few that abuse it don't ruin it for the rest of us.
Excellent comments, Carl. If we ever meet, drinks are on me...
x2 Carl. You've shown another side between this and your interim views while the ling crisis was being resolved. :ashamed:
 

MikeyLikesIt

did you say FISHING ???
Feb 24, 2003
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did a little house cleaning to keep this thread open, and in support of Joe Buso, who posted this important and relevant information for the benefit of those of us WHO WERE NOT THERE.
 

Pangamaster

Cow Town Here I come!
Jul 1, 2008
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I remember working for Ray on the Producer...and chasing the spring time yellowtail...the fever in his eyes to kill, kill, kill.....and the fear in his eyes as the yellows starting heading towards that forbidden zone.....he loved to kill and was very competitive....but he would never cross that line. He wasn't going to be the one that brought the wrath of locals down on all the US Boats. We have seen in recent years the Mexican govenment cracking down on some historic places. Guadalupe being the main one. Right now every Island off the coast of Baja is up for consideration to become a biosphere...just like the revillagigedo islands and Guadalupe. Last thing we need now is any unneeded attention brought to the people supporting this process to add fuel to their fires. Yes, even the Coronado Islands are up for Biosphere consideration.
 

prater

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Oct 16, 2007
215
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lake havasu city, AZ
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michael
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luhrs 30 open, "Arms Wide Open"
"Last thing we need now is any unneeded attention..."

This is the most important statement in the entire thread, particularly with regards to our long term ability to fish both Mexican and SoCal waters, as unfortunately in politically charged times perception often trumps reality. Examples of poor perception are not limited to Captains who violate fishing zones, but include private boats who post pictures of large fish or multiple catches, as these are often used as propoganda for various interests to support their cause. As an example, how many TV programs carried the recent BSB catastrophe from the pier? How many of you remember the marlin that was found in the ditch? How often are pictures posted on PETA like networks of cattle boat catches of 200 yellows- merely limits for 40 anglers- that are used as ammunition to sway the emotions of the ignorant masses? With this in mind, consider the following:
1) Never post pictures of a large number of fish strewn across decks. Instead, post a picture of the finest example, particulary when children are involved, and report the count. The same people who abhor pictures of YT strewn across the decks will react favorably to a child holding a 24# fish!
2) Do not fish any boat whose Captain violates either the law or common sense
3) Promote recreational fishing as a the family value it has always been
4) Be active and positive in local politics, it helps! This is particularly true with MLPA meetings at the local level, where all the well presented logic regarding commercial versus recreation fish counts will never go as far as a pleasant father who takes the microphone and says, "I'd like you to meet my daugher Janie. She and I love to go fishing together."

Thanks, Mike
 

Pangamaster

Cow Town Here I come!
Jul 1, 2008
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It is not a written down rule. It is a long understood informal agreement made with the boats that fish out of ensenada. From many moons ago. No navy boat is going to come bust anyone for fishing inside the line. What will happen is that a bunch of pissed off owner operators will complain to the government about how the rich Americans are stealing all their fish and customers.....then we have far worse things to deal with....like no fishing in Mexican waters.
 

kerncat

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Apr 2, 2005
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Opos
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Gone to a new keeper
I'm just an old fart from "back in the day" but have a couple of comments..Recently I spoke with a long time skipper and we were chatting about the "old days" when we'd go on an overnight for yellowtail and make mackeral most of the night...then anchor up just off Pukey and wait for the current to shift and start to run down the island...game on for lots of big yellows this time of year..I noticed Ray Sobiak's name earlier and I fished a lot with him and the other skippers in those times and I agree...those boats in that overnight environment did want to kill fish but also were very observant of the rules and it was fun to be part of that kind of trip....I asked him why that wasn't done any more and his reply was that with the absolute limit kill mentality of today's angler and the "need to get his money's worth" the skippers are under huge pressure to find and kill limits. He told me most anglers are not willing to sit at Puke and spend the day for a couple or three nice fat yellowtail....In an effort to keep running on a regular basis the emphasis has changed from just a great day on the water with some nice fish as the resulting bonus.....to a "the trip was a failure if we don't get our limits no matter what".

Huge pressures on everyone concerned what with an enormous influx of new anglers...high dollar technical equipment...new boats...new charter and regular schedule landing boats....a crap economy with the disposable income being limited....less fish for all the various reasons we all know....politics between the US and other countries....environmentalists in the mix...etc, etc, etc. It's a very tough environment for everyone concerned and I truly hope that anglers can cut the sport boat captains a bit of slack and enjoy the trip as much as the kill...I hope the boat operators (private and commercial) can respect other country's laws and rules....that fish limits and seasons can be respected so it all doesn't all get shut down...and most of all that what is meant to be a relaxing sport isn't relegated to some sort of Trojan arena contest where everyone eventually loses. I guess I'm just not a big enough "dog to run with the new pack" so I'll simply enjoy the sunshine on the porch and occasionally go out for a day of fishing and try to just enjoy it for the sport.
 

El Buso

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May 6, 2005
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68
Pauma Valley
Name
Joe
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80 Aqua Bay
Just a quick note. I have heard second hand that Ken Franke has been looking for any documentation on the "line" and has not found it. Nonetheless...it is there by precedent and has been acknowledged by many in years past.
I have made my apologies and I am not going to wrap mysel in anchor chain and jump. What I do see is a real opportunity here. There were at least 3 Mexican captains who posted on this thread...I have never seen that before.
To you guys below the border...I have fished as a passenger with your fleet many times and always had a great time. Rather than choosing sides, how can we use this incident to improve our relationship with you and your fleet? I have ideas and I am sure that you do also. I am sure that everyone on this web site fishes in your waters and they would ALL welcome a better relationship with you.
Joe, Constitution
 

Carl

Bridesmaid,,,,,,,Again
Nov 29, 2004
20,370
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52
San Diego
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Carl
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everyone elses
Just a quick note. I have heard second hand that Ken Franke has been looking for any documentation on the "line" and has not found it. Nonetheless...it is there by precedent and has been acknowledged by many in years past.
I have made my apologies and I am not going to wrap mysel in anchor chain and jump. What I do see is a real opportunity here. There were at least 3 Mexican captains who posted on this thread...I have never seen that before.
To you guys below the border...I have fished as a passenger with your fleet many times and always had a great time. Rather than choosing sides, how can we use this incident to improve our relationship with you and your fleet? I have ideas and I am sure that you do also. I am sure that everyone on this web site fishes in your waters and they would ALL welcome a better relationship with you.
Joe, Constitution
:appl:
 

captdsk

http://www.constitutioncharters. com
Mar 22, 2009
98
0
0
Tustin,C.A. USA
Name
Darryl
Boat
Constitution
Just a quick note. I have heard second hand that Ken Franke has been looking for any documentation on the "line" and has not found it. Nonetheless...it is there by precedent and has been acknowledged by many in years past.
I have made my apologies and I am not going to wrap mysel in anchor chain and jump. What I do see is a real opportunity here. There were at least 3 Mexican captains who posted on this thread...I have never seen that before.
To you guys below the border...I have fished as a passenger with your fleet many times and always had a great time. Rather than choosing sides, how can we use this incident to improve our relationship with you and your fleet? I have ideas and I am sure that you do also. I am sure that everyone on this web site fishes in your waters and they would ALL welcome a better relationship with you.
Joe, Constitution
Thanks for everything Joe I am looking forward to fishing with you
 

Fishncomando

Newbie
Aug 6, 2009
35
0
6
LA CA
Name
Josh
Boat
Parker 24, Columbia 30, Valco U-14, Zodiac
"Last thing we need now is any unneeded attention..."

This is the most important statement in the entire thread, particularly with regards to our long term ability to fish both Mexican and SoCal waters, as unfortunately in politically charged times perception often trumps reality. Examples of poor perception are not limited to Captains who violate fishing zones, but include private boats who post pictures of large fish or multiple catches, as these are often used as propoganda for various interests to support their cause. As an example, how many TV programs carried the recent BSB catastrophe from the pier? How many of you remember the marlin that was found in the ditch? How often are pictures posted on PETA like networks of cattle boat catches of 200 yellows- merely limits for 40 anglers- that are used as ammunition to sway the emotions of the ignorant masses? With this in mind, consider the following:
1) Never post pictures of a large number of fish strewn across decks. Instead, post a picture of the finest example, particulary when children are involved, and report the count. The same people who abhor pictures of YT strewn across the decks will react favorably to a child holding a 24# fish!
2) Do not fish any boat whose Captain violates either the law or common sense
3) Promote recreational fishing as a the family value it has always been
4) Be active and positive in local politics, it helps! This is particularly true with MLPA meetings at the local level, where all the well presented logic regarding commercial versus recreation fish counts will never go as far as a pleasant father who takes the microphone and says, "I'd like you to meet my daugher Janie. She and I love to go fishing together."

Thanks, Mike

HAHA, That eliminates all the BSV sportfishers out of SD.
 

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Lou Kohn

Newbie
Jun 17, 2009
727
6
18
Fillmpre, Ca USA
Name
Lou Kohn
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25 wellcraft
Joe,
I'll bring the Arcade game down and we do a fish-off for the lines! The future is on your shoulders! But to be serious Joe, It shows what kind of Capt you are that you are trying to logically work this out instead of some who are just bitching about it. I'll be back in town this week and if you need any help with a plan, give a holler. By the way, The jacuzzi jet pumps I said were in good shape turned out to be crap. I'll keep my eyes open for them for you though.
Lou
 

WOMBAT

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Apr 18, 2010
3
0
0
CORONA
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DAVE
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Local sportfishing boats in dispute with Mexico


By Ed Zieralski, UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER Friday, April 16, 2010 at 12:02 a.m.
San Diego-based sportfishing boats in the midst of an incredible spring yellowtail bite are scrambling to find new fish in the wake of restrictions imposed by the Mexican government.
The issue centers on Todos Santos Island, where Mexican officials believe U.S. sport boats were fishing too close to it. Mexican reports said one boat was in Todos Santos Bay, but that was disputed by the boat’s owner-captain, Chuck Taft of the Sea Adventure II, said Michelle Gandola, director of public relations and international affairs for the Sportfishing Association of California.
Taft was fishing yesterday and couldn’t be reached. His wife, Deanna, said inquiries are being directed to SAC.
Meantime, the Sportfishing Association of California has instructed U.S. sport boats to “avoid fishing” anywhere near the Todos Santos area. This came after a Mexican official suggested a “breathing spell” at the height of the controversy when tempers flared on both sides. The Mexicans were unhappy about alleged illegal fishing, and sportboat captains felt they were within their rights to fish certain areas based on the Mexican permits they purchased. All boats that fish in Mexico, whether they’re long-range vessels or three-quarter-day boats, must have Mexican fishing permits.
“We have to remember that Mexico keeps its doors open to the U.S. fleet to fish there,” Gandola said. “We’re blessed to be there, and when misunderstandings like this happen, we have to keep our cool and try and work things out with the Mexican government and keep our sport fleet doing business down there.”
Gandola said there was an agreement struck 10 years ago between U.S. sport boats and the Mexican government. U.S. boats agreed to stay out of Todos Santos Bay and fish in water 50 fathoms deep and more.
Sport boats went from catching limits or near limits of yellowtail to fishing for rockfish. Taft’s Sea Adventure II made a catch of bottomfish early yesterday, then went offshore to explore kelp paddies for possible yellowtail or bonito.
 
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