Area 7 going to one fish limit

J.C.

Run what ya Brung
May 20, 2012
998
598
93
Wa
Name
Justin
Boat
18' aluminum
Seems like I remember BV starting a thread about going easy on BM reports prior to the season. If I remember right there were a number of guys saying we cant effect the fishery. Where are those guys now?

What happened to that thread anyway? :argue:
 

Team Sency

Fish!! Or be Fished!!!
Jan 6, 2012
2,775
2,458
113
Black Diamond
Name
Chris
Boat
JuiceBox2
Fact is that fishing has been solid and many have had a great season thus far. Be thankful and appreciate they have kept it open. The States job is to do the best job they can do to preserve the fishery and however they determine, or discover the success, is fine by me. I would rather the real numbers always be known to help those far smarter than me make the best decisions over the majority of us, who if honest and humble would admit we are selfish and self gratifying. I want to fish today, and I really want to fish tomorrow and for years to come.

The opposite is when out Steelheading and limit moved to three fish and I am like they might as well make it 100 fish per day, cause I am rarely in the hell catching three of those buggers in a day!
 

J.C.

Run what ya Brung
May 20, 2012
998
598
93
Wa
Name
Justin
Boat
18' aluminum
Fact is that fishing has been solid and many have had a great season thus far. Be thankful and appreciate they have kept it open. The States job is to do the best job they can do to preserve the fishery and however they determine, or discover the success, is fine by me. I would rather the real numbers always be known to help those far smarter than me make the best decisions over the majority of us, who if honest and humble would admit we are selfish and self gratifying. I want to fish today, and I really want to fish tomorrow and for years to come.
You have way more faith in our public servants than myself, while some are great. I generally think of them as selfish and self gratifying to whatever agenda that drives them whether it be for profit or dreams of grandeur that they are gonna make the world the way they think it should be because they went to school and are smarter than the next guy. Nope not buying

This is the same state that made decisions that almost ruined our natural resources in a 100 year time frame and Im supposed to be thankful and not question their judgement. I'll stick to doing my own thinking.
 
Last edited:

Thrasher_1

Member
Jun 2, 2009
458
41
28
Water
Name
Curmudgeon
Boat
Water Weiner
I'm seriously curious who "they" are? We stopped posting reports here for some time now but surely BD postings can't be the major factor, can it? Kinda scary to think that this forum is the deciding factor to shutting down a fishery. Especially since I know a few posters tend to "embellish" their reports. I do in fact think Frank asked a valid question though. Where did the fish checkers go? Do they work this time of year? and how is this truly being determined??
It's not just the Bd postings.
 

Team Sency

Fish!! Or be Fished!!!
Jan 6, 2012
2,775
2,458
113
Black Diamond
Name
Chris
Boat
JuiceBox2
You have way more faith in our public servants than myself, while some are great. I generally think of them as selfish and self gratifying to whatever agenda that drives them whether it be for profit or dreams of grandeur that they are gonna make the world the way they think it should be because they went to school and are smarter than the next guy. Nope not buying

This is the same state that made decisions that almost ruined our natural resources in a 100 year time frame and Im supposed to be thankful and not question their judgement. I'll stick to doing my own thinking.

Understandable to feel this way. Our world is not perfect and never will be, but I have enjoyed the great fishing our state provides for 35 years. Is the State perfect? No, but I thank those involved that have enabled me to enjoy my favorite hobby for all these years, and reducing a catch limit to keep it open seems fair to me.

Ultimately, if you or anyone have better ideas or could do a better job at it, then please change your profession and get to work on this versus leaving it in the hands of those you clearly have no faith in.
 

blackmouther

10%er during Salmon Season
Jun 29, 2009
2,606
389
83
Mount Vernon Washington
Name
Fowlmotuher
Boat
Shopping
The part that irritates most hardcore winter fishermen is the amount of information shared openly on the www or tv that any real fisherman had to work for. Knowledge used to come from trial and error. Now it comes from google making it more productive for the new guy. My favorite part of being a good fisherman is passing it on to friends that are new to it. Example, 21 years ago my sisters boyfriends brother who didnt know me from adam knew i liked to fish and invited me bass fishing on big lake. It was a blast as he was fishing the circuit and having a chance to go was awesome. 20 years later on this very site i got a pm with his number and he had dropped the bass thing and went full tilt saltwater. In the short period of time i have had a chance to fish with him, his dad and his son. Let me just say that its alot more rewarding being able to pass on hard earned knowledge to friends you know rather than people you dont know at all. Seeing first hand a 15 year old put the death roll on a herring or getting a picture on your phone of you buddies first tyee. Or getting a picture of a 5.0 big river bent because a 50+ pound king ran your friends gear into the kelp and destroyed the hook. My best friends in life were made fishing. The overposters or braggarts have no fucking clue how rewarding this sport can be if played correctly. Save the pictures of your barely legal fish and summary of shakers for someone who gives a shit. Most of us really dont! There is such a thing as notable catches and 8#'s is not it. 22# on light beer is very notable. Just an example and yes it did happen but thats between friends.
 

Smalma

Newbie
Jun 27, 2012
55
15
8
Marysville, Washington
Name
Curt
Boat
My office
If folks are really interested in how the catches are estimated in this or other mark selective fisheries the following might be of interest -

http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/015333/wdfw015333.pdf

From the summary -

"WDFW’s Puget Sound Sampling Unit (PSSU) was tasked with implementing a comprehensive sampling and monitoring program in Areas 7, 8-1, 8-2, 9,10,11 and 12 to collect the data needed to evaluate each pilot mark-selective Chinook fishery and its impact on unmarked salmon. As per state-tribal agreement (e.g., WDFW and NWIFC 2011), we developed area-specific sampling plans consisting of several comprehensive and complementary sampling components, including dockside creel sampling, test fishing, on-water or aerial effort surveys, and angler-completed voluntary trip reports (VTRs). We tailored area-specific sampling plans so that we could reliably estimate the following critical parameters needed for evaluating mark-selective fisheries:"

Notice that list does not include reports from the various fishing forums. I have noticed however that every week on the Puget sound creel reports that I see reports from Washington Park, Cornet Bay, Bellingham harbor and I'm sure that some folks fishing MA 7 land their catches along the north part of the Olympic Peninsula. Yes not everyone is checked but again if you wish to see how those checks contribute to the catch estimates check the provided link above.

Tight lines
Curt
 
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blackvelvet

old and gray
Jun 19, 2010
2,849
228
83
slug and duck country
Name
BV
Boat
One that works for me
So basically the state has an average recreational daily impact for weekends and weekdays but seems they never consider how many unfishable days there are during winter.

same as eastern straits halibut quota. 13 days, and we always seem to get the quota even if 8 of those 13 days are gale force winds.

lack of checkers and solid data don't go hand in hand.

No matter how someone tries to explain the science behind the numbers, I'm not buying it because its about 10% science and 90% guesswork from some college educated pencil pusher that probably never fished the saltchuck a day in thier life

it's all about our impact on ESA listed chinook runs, when we all know the real impact comes from tribal nets in ESA listed rivers. Get em outta there and we could keep 4 each a day all year long

we're not the problem, but we pay the biggest price.
 

J.C.

Run what ya Brung
May 20, 2012
998
598
93
Wa
Name
Justin
Boat
18' aluminum
Understandable to feel this way. Our world is not perfect and never will be, but I have enjoyed the great fishing our state provides for 35 years. Is the State perfect? No, but I thank those involved that have enabled me to enjoy my favorite hobby for all these years, and reducing a catch limit to keep it open seems fair to me.

Ultimately, if you or anyone have better ideas or could do a better job at it, then please change your profession and get to work on this versus leaving it in the hands of those you clearly have no faith in.
Chris I generally enjoy your perspective. I also am thankful to those fighting a good fight jaded as I may sound. If fisheries management was as competitive as my trade and paid the bills I would be happy to serve. I would consider myself lucky to do so. Unfortunately I gotta work my ass off for a few more years. So for now my spare energy will be spent having fun not making the rules of fun. I'll leave that to the guys that have the time and hope for the best.

You seem to look at it like government allows you to enjoy your natural resources when in my mind our hatchery program is an effort to replace OUR resources that they already fucked up. Sportsman and subsistence fisherman certainly aren't to blame and neither are the tribes for that matter even if they are the most recent takers. Pandering to the tribes at this point is on the state, federal verdicts my ass. Washington didn't have a problem going our own way when it came to legalizing weed or gay marriage but we are gonna let the tribes run roughshot through our fisheries while the guy that bought his licenses, boat tabs, trailer tabs, paid his gas tax, his income taxes, his property taxes on a house he would be lucky to sell for what he bought it for 10 years ago because trusting the government worked out so well with our banking system and Im supposed to blindly trust people smarter than me without question when our season is limited.

I don't have to be happy or thankful about our seasons being reduced by some college educated bean counters guesstimate based on loose data to begin with. I have worked with enough educated folks to know how dumb they can be, they never seem to lack confidence in their decisions one way or another.
I'll give em that.

Rant over
 

blackmouther

10%er during Salmon Season
Jun 29, 2009
2,606
389
83
Mount Vernon Washington
Name
Fowlmotuher
Boat
Shopping
If folks are really interested in how the catches are estimated in this or other mark selective fisheries the following might be of interest -

http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/015333/

From the summary -

"WDFW’s Puget Sound Sampling Unit (PSSU) was tasked with implementing a comprehensive sampling and monitoring program in Areas 7, 8-1, 8-2, 9,10,11 and 12 to collect the data needed to evaluate each pilot mark-selective Chinook fishery and its impact on unmarked salmon. As per state-tribal agreement (e.g., WDFW and NWIFC 2011), we developed area-specific sampling plans consisting of several comprehensive and complementary sampling components, including dockside creel sampling, test fishing, on-water or aerial effort surveys, and angler-completed voluntary trip reports (VTRs). We tailored area-specific sampling plans so that we could reliably estimate the following critical parameters needed for evaluating mark-selective fisheries:"

Notice that list does not include reports from the various fishing forums. I have noticed however that every week on the Puget sound creel reports that I see reports from Washington Park, Cornet Bay, Bellingham harbor and I'm sure that some folks fishing MA 7 land their catches along the north part of the Olympic Peninsula. Yes not everyone is checked but again if you wish to see how those checks contribute to the catch estimates check the provided link above.

Tight lines
Curt
If thats the case.... Than why are you anywhere near this site?
Chris I generally enjoy your perspective. I also am thankful to those fighting a good fight jaded as I may sound. If fisheries management was as competitive as my trade and paid the bills I would be happy to serve. I would consider myself lucky to do so. Unfortunately I gotta work my ass off for a few more years. So for now my spare energy will be spent having fun not making the rules of fun. I'll leave that to the guys that have the time and hope for the best.

You seem to look at it like government allows you to enjoy your natural resources when in my mind our hatchery program is an effort to replace OUR resources that they already fucked up. Sportsman and subsistence fisherman certainly aren't to blame and neither are the tribes for that matter even if they are the most recent takers. Pandering to the tribes at this point is on the state, federal verdicts my ass. Washington didn't have a problem going our own way when it came to legalizing weed or gay marriage but we are gonna let the tribes run roughshot through our fisheries while the guy that bought his licenses, boat tabs, trailer tabs, paid his gas tax, his income taxes, his property taxes on a house he would be lucky to sell for what he bought it for 10 years ago because trusting the government worked out so well with our banking system and Im supposed to blindly trust people smarter than me without question when our season is limited.

I don't have to be happy or thankful about our seasons being reduced by some college educated bean counters guesstimate based on loose data to begin with. I have worked with enough educated folks to know how dumb they can be, they never seem to lack confidence in their decisions one way or another.
I'll give em that.

Rant over

WELL SAID BRUTHA. AGREED 100000000000%
 

Smalma

Newbie
Jun 27, 2012
55
15
8
Marysville, Washington
Name
Curt
Boat
My office
Blackvelet -
The catch estimates being made in the various mark selective fisheries is very responsive to changes in fishing pressure (one of the reasons for the need of in season monitoring). One of the major issues in reach encounter guidelines in MA 9 and 7 this winter was reached so quickly was in fact the weather prior to February was exceptional providing many more days of "fishability" than we would expect on a "normal" year.

I will not try to explain the method/science behind the estimates to you but will say the basic method has been around for decades and has undergone rigorous review a number of times (often by folks that were not fans of the method) and has been found to be more than adequate. I know a number of the so-called "collaged educated pencil pushers" that have been involved in the collection of the data, development of the estimates, and review of those estimates that are avid anglers (while maybe not of the skill of many of the "experts" here) who are passionate about both fishing and the resource. In fact many of them spend more time on the salt chasing critters than the average angler and most wish they had more fishing time.

I recognize that it is a waste of my (or anyone's) time to attempt to explain the "science" behind the management of the resource and our fishing during this era of ESA listed stocks and that it is more fun to complain about things based on rumors, myths and erroneous information. I do know that if folks can not or unwilling to get involved or take the time to attempt to understand the process and issues rather than "ranting" based on miss information remaining silent may better serve our fishing.

In the meantime I'm preparing to make the trek to the south this morning to once again take part in the painful process called North of Falcon. Hopefully at the end we will continue to have improving fishing opportunities continuing the progress have enjoyed over the last decade. I suspect most here would prefer the opportunities we now have over what was available just a few years ago. Could those opportunities be better - of course. There are a handful of folks working to preserve and hopefully improve things; I for one am thankful each and every one of their efforts!

Curt
 

Team Sency

Fish!! Or be Fished!!!
Jan 6, 2012
2,775
2,458
113
Black Diamond
Name
Chris
Boat
JuiceBox2
Well said JC. My point was on this single decision on keeping the season open longer by reducing the daily catch limit seems like a fair one to me(cause reality fishing has been outstanding this winter).

I certainly have my frustrations with decisions our state makes...Halibut dates drive me crazy! My overall view of the state and fisheries is that certainly some good has been done since I am enjoying it as much as I did as a kid. And I must admit that I get overwhelmed in trying to understand what is really effecting our fish stocks with all the factors that could be involved. And thus, I don't have the answers and respect those that may be on to solutions that I could not grasp.

Thanks for generally enjoying my perspective and appreciate you sharing yours.
 

blackvelvet

old and gray
Jun 19, 2010
2,849
228
83
slug and duck country
Name
BV
Boat
One that works for me
why is all this crap necessary ???

because no matter how much we try to do our part to help the ESA listed fish runs recover, it just isn't happening.

20 years of closed king fishing in Puget sound did nothing, things only got worse.

as long as there is no accountabilty for the tribal fisheries, we will never see a recovery, only exctinctions of runs.

its a tough pill to swallow when you catch teenage tribal kids netting the spawning beds of a river that they supposedly don't net, then go sell the fish for a case of beer. Seen it for myself in the north fork of stilly, which just so happens to have the smallest amount of wild fish remaining out of the ESA listed rivers.

we can conserve all we want, but until there is full accountabilty there will only be more extinct wild salmon and steelhead runs in Puget sound.... and wild fish will only be something our grandkids will read about in history books
 

whido isle

capt
Oct 6, 2010
837
67
28
coupeville,wa u.s.a
Name
jay
Boat
25' amf SS245 o/s (bart's legacy)
well said bv and until we get honest accountability from co-managers & to also be able to be held accountable I don't see alot of the efforts from nof to be able to make true progress
 

Salmon Addict

Newbie
Feb 5, 2011
378
23
18
Area 7 San Juans
Name
Matt
Boat
20' Alumaweld Blackhawk
why is all this crap necessary ???

because no matter how much we try to do our part to help the ESA listed fish runs recover, it just isn't happening.

20 years of closed king fishing in Puget sound did nothing, things only got worse.

as long as there is no accountabilty for the tribal fisheries, we will never see a recovery, only exctinctions of runs.

its a tough pill to swallow when you catch teenage tribal kids netting the spawning beds of a river that they supposedly don't net, then go sell the fish for a case of beer. Seen it for myself in the north fork of stilly, which just so happens to have the smallest amount of wild fish remaining out of the ESA listed rivers.

we can conserve all we want, but until there is full accountabilty there will only be more extinct wild salmon and steelhead runs in Puget sound.... and wild fish will only be something our grandkids will read about in history books
Edgar, Jonas, Romulus and their tribal nets are hurting our salmon and steel head runs for sure Ted !
 

Nookie Hooker

Aquatic Slayer
Jul 10, 2010
646
672
93
Custer, Wa
Name
Chris
Boat
Capt. Red
Well, If the tools making decisions on whether or not to open/close salmon seasons are doing it, at least partially, based on fishing reports from us twerking, lying, bragging, penis-size compensating, and outright B.S.ing knuckledraggers, then they better take ALL reports at face value, and plug that into the equation.

Here is my summary, as I recall at this time, of my fishing for this winter season in MA 7-
Days fished- 15
Marked fish over 22" caught- 0
Unmarked fish over 22" caught- 0

Sub-22" fish caught- Oddly enough, 0
I did catch a bird, 28 pieces of eel grass, a stick, 3 empty Greek Yogurts containers, either a condom or a water balloon, and two different right feet ( one in Keds, one in a Croc).

Or perhaps the state should just consider that there is a lot more fish out there this year than there has been for many years. I think any serious fisherman that has been hitting it this winter would agree that the per-trip encounter rate is waaayyy up. For some reason the MA7 fishery, at least IMO, has been in a steady recovery for the last 6 years or so, with simply more fish being available.
 
W

woodrow246

Well, If the tools making decisions on whether or not to open/close salmon seasons are doing it, at least partially, based on fishing reports from us twerking, lying, bragging, penis-size compensating, and outright B.S.ing knuckledraggers, then they better take ALL reports at face value, and plug that into the equation.

Here is my summary, as I recall at this time, of my fishing for this winter season in MA 7-
Days fished- 15
Marked fish over 22" caught- 0
Unmarked fish over 22" caught- 0

Sub-22" fish caught- Oddly enough, 0
I did catch a bird, 28 pieces of eel grass, a stick, 3 empty Greek Yogurts containers, either a condom or a water balloon, and two different right feet ( one in Keds, one in a Croc).

Or perhaps the state should just consider that there is a lot more fish out there this year than there has been for many years. I think any serious fisherman that has been hitting it this winter would agree that the per-trip encounter rate is waaayyy up. For some reason the MA7 fishery, at least IMO, has been in a steady recovery for the last 6 years or so, with simply more fish being available.

I caught a fetha stik with a badass reel last year draggin bottom for Walleye on the outside NH..
 

Nookie Hooker

Aquatic Slayer
Jul 10, 2010
646
672
93
Custer, Wa
Name
Chris
Boat
Capt. Red
Gawd Dammit! Did It still have a trophy Peacock Bass on it? Bugger pulled it right out of my hands. I gotta ask though- Why were you dragging your bottom on the outside? That annoying worm problem still acting up?

Crap, I suppose WDFW is going to close the Peacock Bass season now. Sorry!
 

blackmouther

10%er during Salmon Season
Jun 29, 2009
2,606
389
83
Mount Vernon Washington
Name
Fowlmotuher
Boat
Shopping
Well, If the tools making decisions on whether or not to open/close salmon seasons are doing it, at least partially, based on fishing reports from us twerking, lying, bragging, penis-size compensating, and outright B.S.ing knuckledraggers, then they better take ALL reports at face value, and plug that into the equation.

Here is my summary, as I recall at this time, of my fishing for this winter season in MA 7-
Days fished- 15
Marked fish over 22" caught- 0
Unmarked fish over 22" caught- 0

Sub-22" fish caught- Oddly enough, 0
I did catch a bird, 28 pieces of eel grass, a stick, 3 empty Greek Yogurts containers, either a condom or a water balloon, and two different right feet ( one in Keds, one in a Croc).

Or perhaps the state should just consider that there is a lot more fish out there this year than there has been for many years. I think any serious fisherman that has been hitting it this winter would agree that the per-trip encounter rate is waaayyy up. For some reason the MA7 fishery, at least IMO, has been in a steady recovery for the last 6 years or so, with simply more fish being available.
Not true. First teener on the captain red was a thread on here. The fact that the numbers are an average makes me think that if 26 fish were caught for 26 boats and 13 shakers were released along with 13 natives which equals a fish a boat bonked, 1/2 a shaker and 1/2 a native as well. Problem is, not all boats bring in a fish or release anything. The numbers will never work. If there were 3 fishermen per boat and only 4 boats limited and 2 fishermen got fish out of 3 on another the state cannot assume those numbers for all boats. If a checker is only there on the weekend we are getting fucked and the state knows it. If only there was the same formula used for the tribes. I'm sure the know it all fuckheads who keep trying to justify this bullshit on here are shaking their feeble heads but without REAL data they are doing more harm than good. If we're gonna get fucked by declaring every fish I suggest pleading the 5th when asked how you did. Until the gill nets are banned the state can just SUCK A FART OUT OF MY ASS. Between NOAA trying to close the west side and our seasons being closed early I have had enough of their bullshit. Closing area 9 early for kings last year because of too many encounters with shakers and natives? Think about it. The season was still open for coho and the same amount of encounters with chinook other than being able to retain a hatchery king it went back under the assumption that only 50% would live. Gimme a fucking break. All bullshit, all of it. Same thing exists on the coast. No deep water ling fishery except on halibut days (3-4) because we may catch a yellow eye or Boccaccio or canary rockfish. Where do lings live....? Bingo rocky areas. What do they eat.....? ROCKFISH any of them. Are lings over abundant in these areas....? Well long story short lings grow big real fast and eat the above listed that take many years to grow. Wake the fuck up people this state is misfuckingmanaged. Anything you say can and will be held against you by the tribal council, I mean wdfw.
 

Line '79

Still Livin'
May 18, 2012
440
33
28
Skagit LIFER!
Name
Officer Doofy
Boat
Holding Air
I have been wondering if the state takes into consideration people like me. See I usually just end up going for boat rides with a bunch of tackle that I can't seem to make work.
 

J.C.

Run what ya Brung
May 20, 2012
998
598
93
Wa
Name
Justin
Boat
18' aluminum
I don't think any of us are against a responsibly managed fishery. Lets not forget fisheries management in the northwest was started by fisherman not because the state said so and not because of concern for tribal fishing. Somewhere along the way our bloated broken government decided the tribes take is paramount. Must have something to do with the political influence they have gained and when I say political influence I mean a shitload of casino money and more grants than they know what to do with.

Get the Fucking nets out of the river and all this animosity goes away. They say they would rather fish anyway so let em get out and H&L with the rest of us and lets see what their take is then. At least then they earned it. Some of the tribal members truly love to fish but if you give them the option to net they'll net.
 

blackmouther

10%er during Salmon Season
Jun 29, 2009
2,606
389
83
Mount Vernon Washington
Name
Fowlmotuher
Boat
Shopping
I don't think any of us are against a responsibly managed fishery. Lets not forget fisheries management in the northwest was started by fisherman not because the state said so and not because of concern for tribal fishing. Somewhere along the way our bloated broken government decided the tribes take is paramount. Must have something to do with the political influence they have gained and when I say political influence I mean a shitload of casino money and more grants than they know what to do with.

Get the Fucking nets out of the river and all this animosity goes away. They say they would rather fish anyway so let em get out and H&L with the rest of us and lets see what their take is then. At least then they earned it. Some of the tribal members truly love to fish but if you give them the option to net they'll net.
Time to rewrite the treaty. What makes them so special anyways.
 
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MarkFromSea

Piscatologist
Jun 10, 2012
1,762
514
113
Name
Mark
Boat
"Solo"
Here's an article from 1987, it's long, but includes how the more prosperous or better funded Natives intercepted fish long before they hit the rivers. In essence, at that time, the traditional or ceremonial salmon fishing was harmed by an essentially unregulated growth of the Native vessel fishing fleet. The article has just a touch of the Boldt decision and the Supreme Court ruling on it. I think Boldt got it wrong but the Supreme Court didn't change it dramatically if at all. The Supreme Court did leave a door open, according to this article.
http://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/united-states/unintended-consequences-boldt-decision
 

J.C.

Run what ya Brung
May 20, 2012
998
598
93
Wa
Name
Justin
Boat
18' aluminum
Great articles Mark. I wonder if anyone has ever propsed a 1/3 of the take all around. Sporties, Tribes, and commies. Seems like the only truly fair solution with the amount sporties contribute to the economy let alone the fact that we are citizens whose families have fought and died for these resources and built this country. The article from 87 actually makes this sound doable if the state actually had the balls. The interesting thing about that article to me was that it was written by proponents of the tribes.

From the 87 write up,

In 1979, the Supreme Court upheld this decision. However, the Supreme Court altered Boldt's interpretation, holding that the 50 percent treaty tribe share was an upper limit which could be adjusted downward as the treaty tribe's "moderate living needs were met. Although it did not dispute the essence of Boldt's interpretation that the tribes possessed a "class right to a share of the fish" (Law Week 4983), it gave the tribes a variable property right to the fish rather than a fixed percentage - See more at: http://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/united-states/unintended-consequences-boldt-decision#sthash.ATUZ14MB.dpuf
 

MarkFromSea

Piscatologist
Jun 10, 2012
1,762
514
113
Name
Mark
Boat
"Solo"
That's the door that the Supreme Court left open... that native foot is in it so far though, I just don't see that fight ever occurring and the win, impossible. Due to the political climate at the time, chaos, the Supreme Court didn't out right overturn Boldt. Had that fight just occurred 10 years earlier or later, it may have been interpreted as it is written, "in common". That's how it had been read for decades. Boldt must've been French instead of what he claimed. It's that Supreme Court test, it's already been done... Really hard to change.. Not impossible on some issues... but...
 

J.C.

Run what ya Brung
May 20, 2012
998
598
93
Wa
Name
Justin
Boat
18' aluminum
 

rrenick65

Member
May 23, 2010
141
69
28
Kodiak, AK
Name
Ross
Boat
20' trophy
Im not trying to defend the tribes.... but the decline in our fisheries is more attributed to the government screwing up in the first place and not putting fish ladders in the dams when they were originally built. The loss of fish runs to the tributaries on the upper columbia is the major reason why we dont have numbers we used to
 

blackvelvet

old and gray
Jun 19, 2010
2,849
228
83
slug and duck country
Name
BV
Boat
One that works for me
Lack of fish ladders had nothing to do with the demise of wild salmon stocks in Puget sound rivers and streams.

To understand the whole story, a person need only to hear from those enforcement officers that saw first hand what the tribes did to every river, stream and creek in Puget sound from mid 70's thru early '80s......that's right, if it was a stream 12" deep and 3' across with salmon in it, the nets would go in and nobody could stop them as there was no way of gauging what the tribal share was, and enforcement was left up to the tribes.....and to this day the tribes decide when to fish, where to fish, and when they consider their 50% has been harvested, which never happens.

Jim Tuggle, or "Tug" wrote a very eye opening article in last months reel news from his days in the '70s as a WDFW employee.

Then this months reel news had an even more eye opening article from a guy who actually worked for the tribes just after the boldt decision running beach sein nets........If you haven't read these articles, you should........the things the tribes did back then were just plain stupid, netting spawning beds and now they blame the salmon demise on over development and habitat destruction from bad logging practices.

Bad logging practices my ass......over 100 years ago every major river in the state was plugged with logs, as it was the easiest way to transport them down to the mills, and 99% of the old growth lowland forests were flattened and land left stripped and baron, yet salmon populations were still plenty healthy and viable. Then along came judge Boldt, and just coincidentally the stocks of wild Chinook simply disappeared in the following 5 years

Our WDFW has stood up to the tribes and their wreckless disreguard for overharvesting salmon, but everytime the state takes the tribes to court, the state not only loses, but the tribes come out with more, not less, and that has discouraged the WDFW from wasting their time and money taking the tribes to court anymore. Its a lose lose situation for us and a win win for the tribes, but the biggest loser is the wild salmon stocks.

And icing on the cake is judge Boldt was married to a full blown indian woman..........and more icing is that judge boldt had alzheimers before he completed his decision, and 9 months after he signed it into law he did not even know his own name.....true story
 
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rrenick65

Member
May 23, 2010
141
69
28
Kodiak, AK
Name
Ross
Boat
20' trophy
Well I disagree with that..... I do my research on the upper Columbia and 90% of it is about habitat restoration to the Spokane, Colville, Kettle, and Pend Oreille. All of which use to have thriving salmon populations. They are all under restoration efforts to re-introduce salmon populations with the hopeful introduction of salmon ladders on several of the dams blocking passage to these tributaries. My professor, Dr. Allen Scholz, that I do a majority of my research under has been around for awhile and has published several papers on the subject and is a world class expert in salmon populations and homing effects. Saying dams had nothing to do with salmon populations on the Columbia is like saying the Elwha dam had no effect on fish. In fact, Native Americans had little effect on the salmon populations back then, as it was a subsistence fishery. It's not that way anymore, but the Tribe's were around for however many hundreds of years and the salmon populations still thrived. Now that it is a commercial fishery for profit, we are having problems. The genetics from these upper reaches were those of some of the largest Chinook salmon in the Columbia river system, now they are lost and can't be returned. You can look up countless articles on any reliable database (not google) and find hundreds of published papers on dam effects on migratory fish and see the evidence. Below is a link for a simple outline by Bill Bakke a very respectable scientist.

The stocks can never be returned but the only way to return our fisheries to an optimal level is through by restructuring the treaties to subsistence fisheries, through selective fisheries and through limited entry fisheries.

But hey what do I know, I'm just a pencil pusher....