Antler growth

Discussion in 'Hunting Discussion' started by tangob5, Oct 27, 2010.

  1. tangob5

    tangob5 Newbie

    Location:
    La Mesa
    Name:
    Tom
    Boat:
    none
    • Messages:
      (90)
    • Likes Received:
      (0)
    This thread isn’t to start a pissing contest or to insult anyone. This is for information only.

    In another thread I stated someone shot a spike and just left it there. Another person who probably repeated something some other wise sage said “If it was a spike with really long horns then it wasn't necessarily a bad thing. The forkies get shot while the 5 yr old spikes pass on the gene.”

    Now for the short version: Older spikes are not necessarily due to genetics the environment plays a more important role.

    For those of you thirsting for information read on. Antler growth is dependent on several factors. Yes, genetics is one of them but more importantly is water, nutrition and stress. Antlers are composed mostly of protein 45% the rest is calcium 22%, phosphorus 11% and other trace minerals. What a buck eats in the spring and early summer as well as an adequate supply of water determines antler growth. If the browse is not of a sufficient nutrient value it will affect antler growth. If there isn’t enough water it will reduce antler growth and one year of normal waterfall after several years of drought won’t reverse things overnight. Here is one that may be of most interest STRESS. It has been shown that stress from hunting pressure reduces antler growth. Guess what, it’s not only the two legged hunter that causes the stress. So if the environment is not conducive to antler growth there can be a lot of spikes running around that are older then they should be but when things turn around the normal antler growth should return. Additionally, it is not uncommon to see a three year old spike it’s a normal occurrence.
     
  2. Kurt

    Kurt Mistadobalina

    Location:
    Clairemont
    Name:
    Kurt
    Boat:
    %%%%%
    • Messages:
      (21,105)
    • Likes Received:
      (20)
    And they're off...........
     
  3. Skip Jackson

    Skip Jackson Recovering LandLubber

    Location:
    Lakeside Trailer Park
    Name:
    Dave
    Boat:
    31' Aiwych
    • Messages:
      (1,719)
    • Likes Received:
      (4)
    I don't eat that part of a deer.
     
  4. el Toro

    el Toro I've posted enough I should edit this section

    Location:
    Point Loma
    Name:
    Nate
    Boat:
    Artemis
    • Messages:
      (9,089)
    • Likes Received:
      (1,569)
    You are absolutely correct when it comes strictly to the growth and size of antlers. Stress, feed, water, range conditions, etc, all contribute to the size of a bucks antlers. The important distinction, however, is the the antlers configuration is mostly a function of genetics.

    So a big 3x3 in good years might be only a small 3x3 in lean years, or a forky might be a bigger forky or grow into a 3x3 in a year with good feed, but when it comes to an older buck with a certain antler configuration (regardless of size) year after year, it is mainly because of genetics.

    I guess I'm back at it again, this comes up every year. Other than a yearling with little 2-3" spikes, I think mature spikes should be legal game. We don't want them breeding and passing on that trait. A buck with good genetics should be at least a fork in its second year, even in years with lesser feed. It may be a smaller fork than it would otherwise be, but it will still be a fork. We have lots of 3-4 year old spikes running around. That isn't because of feed conditions, IMO, and it isn't a good thing.

    There is a reason why certain regions have a dominant trait that shows up in an abundance of animals with a particular antler configuartion. Even year after year, in good and bad years. It's mostly genetics. I'm done.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  5. tangob5

    tangob5 Newbie

    Location:
    La Mesa
    Name:
    Tom
    Boat:
    none
    • Messages:
      (90)
    • Likes Received:
      (0)
  6. el Toro

    el Toro I've posted enough I should edit this section

    Location:
    Point Loma
    Name:
    Nate
    Boat:
    Artemis
    • Messages:
      (9,089)
    • Likes Received:
      (1,569)
    I hear ya, and I've read that too, a few times. While it may be true in some places, and/or with whiteys, I just don't buy it here. I've seen far too many spikes that were at least 4-5 yrs old. If they were going to become multipointed, they already would have by then. I think those deer will be spikes, or at best, a genetically inferior spork, forever. Even if the theory were true locally, still, a buck with good genes should branch by age 2. If they don't, to me that would indicate they are genetically inferior and thus, are not the deer we want breeding. Who wants a bunch of deer around that take multiple years to become legal?
     
  7. tangob5

    tangob5 Newbie

    Location:
    La Mesa
    Name:
    Tom
    Boat:
    none
    • Messages:
      (90)
    • Likes Received:
      (0)
    "Once a spike always a spike" is an old wives tale. Research (as little that has been done) has shown it's not true. Even on ranches where culling has taken place it shows no significant difference in the ratios of spikes. As to Whitetail vs Blacktail/Mule Deer the studies should be valid.
     
  8. el Toro

    el Toro I've posted enough I should edit this section

    Location:
    Point Loma
    Name:
    Nate
    Boat:
    Artemis
    • Messages:
      (9,089)
    • Likes Received:
      (1,569)
    I'm not saying once a spike, always a spike as a blanket statement. I'm saying two things... 1) once a spike that is 4+ yrs old, odds are, he'll be a spike forever. There is a difference between a young spike and a mature one. I will agree that a spike that is just 1.5 may outgrow it. But again, point 2) a deer with strong genes should branch by 1.5. When those deer breed we have a bunch more deer who are just spikes in their second year. I dont think that is good. Furthermore, the branch antlered deer that we want breeding and spreading the good genes are the ones that get shot.
    Off topic, but I think a general, otc rifle hunt in the middle of the rut is even more flawed. Rifle rut hunts should be limited, and the general hunt should be post rut, after the does are bred.
     
  9. el Toro

    el Toro I've posted enough I should edit this section

    Location:
    Point Loma
    Name:
    Nate
    Boat:
    Artemis
    • Messages:
      (9,089)
    • Likes Received:
      (1,569)
    you guys wont believe this shit... as I'm sitting here in my stand typing this, guess what just walked by at 15 yds? A fucking 8" spike! No shit! I took a bunch of pics and when i just went back to look i realized my camera had no damn card in it and it apparently has no internal memory. That sucks as they were cool shots at close range.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  10. Kurt

    Kurt Mistadobalina

    Location:
    Clairemont
    Name:
    Kurt
    Boat:
    %%%%%
    • Messages:
      (21,105)
    • Likes Received:
      (20)
    We had Deer in our orchards that came back year after year. Some were spikes that stayed spikes, forever. There were always some new lil spikes that showed that I remember did the same year after year. They had all the food they could possibly want and these deer were hardly stressed. Thousands of acres of wheat to eat and hardly any predators.

    And yes, you get to know the Deer. They have traits just like another other critters. The biggers spikes were actually mean SOBs.
     
  11. BigJack

    BigJack Newbie

    Location:
    Austin Tx
    Name:
    jack
    Boat:
    24' fiber form
    • Messages:
      (1,996)
    • Likes Received:
      (1)
    Some spikes are spikes forever. I saw one that looked like it was going to drop dead from old age while I was tending food plots and it was a 4" spike.
     
  12. Vermonster

    Vermonster Well-Known "Member"

    Location:
    Escondido
    Name:
    Sean
    Boat:
    I'm a Ho'.....
    • Messages:
      (14,126)
    • Likes Received:
      (450)
    Very, very rarely does this happen. In fact, many studies have been done to show that the once a spike, always a spike motto is not true. The fact is, in MOST occasions, the spikes you are seeing are 1 1/2 year old deer that didn't eat well, or are slightly lower on the genetice totem pole. They will however, grow out of it.

    I am not saying that 4.5 year old spikes don't exist, because I have seen one or 2 in my 25 years of hunting. Hoever, it is more often abnormal, not the norm.....

    Nate, still sounds like a good day in the tree..... :cheers:
     
  13. Zbearclaw

    Zbearclaw Newbie

    Location:
    Socialist Republic of Kalistan
    Name:
    Zeke
    Boat:
    7mm wetsuit with 2flip motor
    • Messages:
      (670)
    • Likes Received:
      (0)
    I saw a few mature (read that surely > 2 years) in Alaska where neither feed nor rain are concerns during the spring and summer.

    Overall this state will never have a good deer herd because what the DFG is able to do they don't, and the rest they can't do because of retarted beurecrats being the final decision makers about policy.

    Colorado is sure beautiful this time of year.
     
  14. blowboater

    blowboater Fishing with Papa

    Location:
    san diego
    Name:
    Joel
    Boat:
    35' cheoy lee - Sold
    • Messages:
      (729)
    • Likes Received:
      (6)
    CA should have a couple of years where you can ONLY shoot a forkie or spike. I know other places have done that in order to give the larger, heavier antlered, bucks a chance to breed.
     
  15. Kurt

    Kurt Mistadobalina

    Location:
    Clairemont
    Name:
    Kurt
    Boat:
    %%%%%
    • Messages:
      (21,105)
    • Likes Received:
      (20)
    Mutations caused by genetic drift, in this case with emphasis on hunting, is seen in isolated, small populations. These local Deer herds would seemingly qualify by default.


    Life: The Science of Biology - Google Books
     
  16. andyb

    andyb Newbie

    Location:
    El Cajon
    Name:
    Andy
    Boat:
    Kayak
    • Messages:
      (30)
    • Likes Received:
      (0)
    Remember, if it is less than 3 inches on one side, you can shoot it and tag it as antlerless...
     
  17. tangob5

    tangob5 Newbie

    Location:
    La Mesa
    Name:
    Tom
    Boat:
    none
    • Messages:
      (90)
    • Likes Received:
      (0)
    Kurt, if you think it's about genetic mutations you've got a long way to try and prove that.

    Until you can wrestle those spikes down and determine their age by examining the teeth, it's a moot point as to how old they are.

    Here are a couple of pages from "Mule and Blacktailed Deer of North America" Hope you can read the scan. By the way I was a young biology student helping with the study of deer populations on the Hopland research station up in Mendocino County.

    IMG (Large).jpg
    IMG_0001 (Large).jpg

    Here is results of a study done on the King Ranch. Pages 28 through 40 are of particular interest regarding culling. http://ckwri.tamuk.edu/fileadmin/us...owth_Research_-_Laredo__TX_2009_web_PART2.pdf
     
  18. Kurt

    Kurt Mistadobalina

    Location:
    Clairemont
    Name:
    Kurt
    Boat:
    %%%%%
    • Messages:
      (21,105)
    • Likes Received:
      (20)
    Why would I? People have game cams with the same Deer on them year after year. As I stated before we've had Deer come into our farm year after year as spikes. They are the same Deer. Every year some foot long spikes get shot in the local Mts. These aren't lil spikes, they are big Deer(for here) with long spikes.

    Not that it matters but I have a background in Biology too. Some studies and results are completed just to keep funds going for projects. I haven't seen any lengthy study on Laguna Deer, have you? These aren't the East Coast or Mid West Deer here so any "study" from there doesn't necessarily mean anything.
    Anyway, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree with you on this.
     
  19. tangob5

    tangob5 Newbie

    Location:
    La Mesa
    Name:
    Tom
    Boat:
    none
    • Messages:
      (90)
    • Likes Received:
      (0)
    Then we shall agree to disagree and leave it at that.
     
  20. Kurt

    Kurt Mistadobalina

    Location:
    Clairemont
    Name:
    Kurt
    Boat:
    %%%%%
    • Messages:
      (21,105)
    • Likes Received:
      (20)
    Thanks for keeping it a debate and not an argument. Good day.
     

Share This Page