Acid line path and load testing?

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1fish2fish

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I’m building a two piece Black Hole Cape Cod Special Jigging 150g. I have a some questions. Instead of dumping into one thread, I figured I would separate out the discussions to hopefully get more targeted answers and to make the threads more useful for future reference.

I’m going to acid wrap. I’ve spent a ton of time searching here and other places, but haven’t really found the information I’m looking for on some of the basics. If any of this is covered in other threads or references, my apologies, but I really tried and didn’t find anything.

I know load testing is key.
I’m trying to understand the theory of the line path and loading to the guides/blank through the transition, and what to look for and look out for.

For reference I borrowed a friend’s 1 piece of the same rod (not acid). It is longer, probably slightly more parabolic and bends more through the handle, and has an additional guide (tip +7) than I’m planning. Unloaded, the line contacts the guide rings at the points farthest from the blank (top) for the full guide train. As it loads up, then obviously the line contacts the bottom of the rings.

For my initial guide spacing I used the same spacing as his rod for the top 5 guides. Based on pictures, BH two piece is pretty much the same (as is spinning version for top 4 guides)
I spaced the stripper at the same distance from the reel as his rod. Guide # 5 from tip (# 2 from reel) is coincidentally? in the same position as the #2 guide from reel on his rod.

So, with probably too much introduction, my real questions are more on the theory of how to get the right transition and what to look for in load testing.

With conventional or spinning, the load testing is easier to see the line angles at the guides and see how to adjust. Trying to understand what to look for when load testing acid; the top to bottom transition is tripping (pun intended) me up a bit.

Here’s what I’m seeing:
I’ve got the stripper, two transition guides, then running guides (3).
With my current spacing under no load, the line doesn’t contact the first guide; first contact is second guide (first transition guide). Contact at both transition guides is close to blank.
As I load the rod lightly and even fairly heavily the line contacts the stripper as expected and first transition guide stays close to blank. The line looses contact at the second transition.
Should the second transition guide line contact be like a casting guide (close to blank) or or like a spinning guide (away from blank)?
Should the line position in the second transition as load increases? I think at some point in load curve, it should be loading more like a spinning guide, but maybe not?
Should it transition as load increases or should it stay mostly in the same loading just move a bit be? I think my biggest concern is the even at high load it never takes much load. The line does have much angle at that guide, so the first running guide has a bigger angle, so I’m putting too much stress on blank by not distributing load.

Thinking maybe need to space out guides to get transition closer to butt to get out of the bend a bit?

Video:

Load in video is probably only 5 to 10 lbs. Stills captured from video shows line in middle of second transition guide then with almost no angle at a bit higher load.

And some other pictures.

Any help is much appreciated!
Thanks

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Pitchinwedge

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    Curious about this myself. I tried setting up acid wrapped rods before but never liked how they looked. Each time I end up ditching the idea and going with a standard guide layout. This being said...

    I'd try moving the stripper closer to the reel seat, rotate the second guide more to the say 45* or even 35*, and maybe let the third guide point at 0*. This should allow the line to drop below the blank much more quickly and better distribute the load across the entire blank. The bad thing is there probably will be a tendency for the line to want to stack on one side of the reel. Taste great or less filling? This is the issue...
     
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    hucklongfin

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    I don't mind the line stacking on the left. I just have to push it to the right with my thumb and let it come back on it own. Semi-auto line leveling!
     
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    Capt Richie

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    very simple ..line has to touch each guide ring when loaded even under lite load... its not ring size but height or ring on stripper that matters ...transitions guides #10 are fine two guides about 4" apart at 45 & 135 degrees ..first 180 guide 4" away & same size as two transition guides..run the rest of the 180 guides to follow the natural curve ( bend ) of the blank ..

    If the line isn't touching the guide ring adjust guides or guide height ..guides are pretty useless if the line ins't in contact with them..
     
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    1fish2fish

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    Capt Richie,
    By touching under light load, you mean it should be touching so as load increases the load continually increases with increasing load?

    Still wondering about if the third transition guide. It should load like a spinning guide?

    Guides are FUJI MN.
    10 tip 10-10-10-12-12-20.

    Thanks
     
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    Capt Richie

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    Capt Richie,
    By touching under light load, you mean it should be touching so as load increases the load continually increases with increasing load?

    Still wondering about if the third transition guide. It should load like a spinning guide?

    Guides are FUJI MN.
    10 tip 10-10-10-12-12-20.

    Thanks

    yes ..under all loads line has to touch ring of each ( every ) guide..I would not use those guides ..think the 20 & 12 are over size ..depending on the tip size & your line to line splice can you drop down to #8's ..I would replace the MN 20 with a LC12m ..drop down to MN 10s & go to 8s you may need a couple of more guides..hard to say until the reel is mounded & guide train is tested..

    remember when testing guide train with reel to strip about half the line off the spool..just testing with a full spool of line wont give you true results ...dead lift is mostly BS..check a several different angles off the rod not just 90 degrees
     
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    1fish2fish

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    Thanks Capt Richie
    Does Fuji make LC in polished as the rest of my guides are polished? I know they have scaled down their polished offerings. Cannot find them anywhere, so probably no. Maybe old stock on eBay. Not the end of world if doesn’t match.

    I also have a 16s that I could instead of the 20.

    Measured guides I have:
    Current size 20 puts inside bottom of ring at 12 mm off blank.
    Size 16 puts is at 8 mm.

    Height comparison to the LC12M (from Mudhole specs)

    Looks like from specs, the LC12M would put it at ~9 mm Height 18.8-12 + 2 mm

    I think I’ll stick with the 10s since I don’t have any 8s. Stocks at local shop is low. Usually use FG, but also use improved Bristol which is a bit beefier.

    Thanks for reminder on half spool.

    I did intend to test at multiple angles, but need some gross adjustments before tuning.
     
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    1fish2fish

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    Yes, on the two I measured. On the LC12M I estimated from height (outside of ring)-ring size + 2mm to get to to inside of rings.
     
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    Capt Richie

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    fuji does make an LC12M in polish finish..they use them on the ultra high end rods out of Japan...try Ebay you may find one..I just used one on a rod ..
     
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    RWP

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    IMO, too much over thinking is involved with spiral wraps.

    Get an appropriately sized stripper guide and run 8's the rest of the way out, unless the stripper is huge, then maybe run one additional larger guide.

    Flex the blank and make sure the line doesn't touch the blank in the transition, and set the spacing at the top based on how the line looks.

    Flex the blank hard pulling to the side away from the spiral transition and make sure the line doesn't touch the blank (it will be different than pulling straight down).

    Again, just my opinion, others will disagree.
     
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    rodblder

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    Having built over 100 acid rods the past 25 yrs, I used basically the same set up for the first 3 guides as you did, first guide is normal, next 2 equally offset to the left to get the line under the blank, the rest of the guides(use one or 2 less than normal)to the tip under the blank. I've caught many tuna over 100#s on my acid rods. Pic
    show me at Guadeloupe Island yrs ago with one of my acid rods on a 100# yft.
    Intrepid700MHatLUPE.jpg
     
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    graya

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    0-60-120 rest 180 thats is what I use i wrap all my rods acid wrap I basically use the same guides as if I was wrapping a conventional because I don’t like sharp angles I like acid wrapped no rod twist under load you can fished them open palm try that with a conventional

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    real men don't need to use the rail.....lol
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    1fish2fish

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    I played around a bit more with guide layout. Decided to go all 10s except for the stripper which is an MN 20. Here’s a chart I did based on Capt Richie’s suggestions of 12MLC or 16MLC comparing to the MNs I had. 12 too low, 16 too high (compared to the 20 I used). A 16 LC, might have been a good choice since only ~1mm shorter than the 20 MN. 20 ring looks a bit big relative to the 10s, but I didn’t have patience to search and wait for shipping (probably from Japan for a polished frame). So I wrapped the 20 and finished the rod. The chart assumes that all the LCs have the same offset from height to inside of ring close to guide(where line would sit for a casting guide) as the MN of the same ring size. Disclaimer: Your mileage may vary.

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    1fish2fish

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    Finished guides last night. Will probably do a second coat and some thread work between joint and stripping guide, but other than that I’m done.
    Ended up going with MN 10s for all the guides, except 20 stripper.
    Finished rod weight: 7.9 oz (4.2 oz over blank weight)
    The two piece made fabrication and assembly of grips easier. To ream grips didn’t need a tapered mandrel, just used sharp drill bits by hand one size at a time. Also used a bit with tape as a mandrel to shape grips. I don’t know what others use, but the wood rasp I have is great. Coarse to rough shape quickly, then fine to remove the grooves from coarse, then a finer file and sand paper. Gimbal is Fuji, also turned on drill press to make matte finish.

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    Explorer1

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    So now you load it up, line touches all guides? Like I showed you on the other forum, mine got to really load it up before line touches the stripper guide. Having said that, my slow pitch rod’s stripper guide basically useless, tried all 5 sizes of reels, none of the height will make the line touch the stripper guide...... but it’s factory not custom so I will get fish it like that.
     
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    1fish2fish

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    Yeah, loads up on all the guides (except stripper needs a bit more load). Angle is pretty decent and stays loaded at basically the same spot on the guides(except stripper). Interesting your rod doesn’t load up the stripper. Must be pretty stiff through there. Used to seeing the concern that line is digging into fore grip, when loaded, which would also load the stripper?
     
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    Explorer1

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    Ya my 4 speed jigging rods are stiff. Line touches all guides before and under load. Before loading up line touches stripper guide 4 O’clock and loaded 5 O’clock. (Spiral to right)
    It’s the 2 slow pitch rods I got stripper guide line don’t touch.
     
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    RWP

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    I just realized that I do one more guide in the rotation than you did. I almost always need a guide at 90* to keep the line off the blank at all times.IMG_20210524_060930965.jpg
     
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    RWP

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    I read mixed suggestions regarding a guide at 90. Decided not to. It’s a short rod, also, so wanted a quicker 2 guide transition.
    I think it comes down to the blank and reel combination more than anything.

    Most of the rods I build have small guides and low pro reels, so they line is closer to the blank.
     
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