26 Osprey, Capsized

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Chucka
Jun 30, 2008
386
224
Brier, WA
Name
Brian M
Boat
Parker 2320
Howard are your pfds set to manual or auto inflate?

I changed all mine to manual after reading about a boat capsize and the captain couldn't get out of the cabin because the pfd inflated. He had to puncture it with a knife to swim out. The same thing could happen on any boat even without a cabin. pfd inflates after the boat rolls on top of you or you get tangled thus your trapped in the cockpit and have to swim down to clear the sides. At least when trapped in the cabin your going to have a air pocket most likely until the water equalizes then the door will open.

Auto inflate works great if you fall overboard though and your odds are better if you get knocked unconscious that you will float..

Some other things that go through my mind is if the boat rolls and if there are loose items on the deck that are not thrown out and they can float they are going to float up possible blocking the door since the bow will be the high point. Just something to thing about for those that run with items unsecured on the deck. I have often wondered if a full kill bag would float and I see a lot of people that don't tie those down. On my boat everything is tied down except the bean bags. I will leave my door locked open if i am carrying bean bags.
 
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Chtucker

Lowe boat denter
Feb 15, 2012
3,455
2,367
Sunshine State, AKA NOT.. Kirkland, WA
Name
Howard
Boat
Double Trouble 28' Armstrong
I have mine on auto inflate. The kids are wearing mustang Little Legends 70s foams, and we wear Mustang HIT..

Is it right? I don't know. The door is not a lightweight- It probably weighs 50-100lbs and is a fabricated track. I have thought about disabling the latch so that it cannot slam shut. My wife is a pansy and likes the door almost closed for heat retention. I usually leave a 2-3" gap.
 
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Quan

I Should Upgrade My Account
Aug 21, 2009
1,350
620
Bellingham, WA
Name
Quan
Boat
Defiance Admiral 220 EX "Hawksbeard"
I've wondered about that... wouldn't the water pressure push the door against the rails and keep it from moving, just like a normal door? pressure outside greater than pressure inside... or is it different on a slider???

Science lesson time!

Pressure is just force over area. The more area you have, the more force due to pressure working against you in this situation. If you have saltwater at a density of 0.0371 lb/cu.in, and you're 6ft underwater, the pressure exerted on you would be 2.67psi (72in x 0.0371pci = 2.671psi - it would actually be a pressure gradient, but I'll spare you all that complexity). So, let's say a pilothouse door is 6ft x 3ft wide, that gives us an area of 2592sq.in. Without considering pressure gradient, that means that 2.67psi would result in 6920 lbs of force on the door!! If it doesn't break the door, you're gonna have a hell of a time opening it. As for the little window, let's say it's 2ft x 2ft. That's 576sq.in which means 1538 lbs of force on the window! But wait! The window slides on a frame and the friction coefficient of aluminum on aluminum with a bit of grease is 0.3. That means you'd have to overcome a friction force of 461 lbs to open that slider.

The science problem here is greatly simplified, there's a lot more going on than I presented but it should get us close to the type of forces we'd see. I think you'd be able to get this hypothetical slider open because of adrenaline as well as "impact force" (same reason you can drive a nail while striking a hammer but you can't "push" a nail into wood with the head of hammer) but the cabin door just ain't gonna budge.

End of the day, I'm glad my new Defiance door is all glass and that I have a glass breaker mounted on my cabin wall. =)

Oh, also, thanks for sharing and I'm glad everyone is okay.
 
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tanner.s

Fish Slaughterer
Oct 18, 2012
1,896
599
San Diego
Name
Tanner
Boat
1997 Proline 23 W/A
Science lesson time!

Pressure is just force over area. The more area you have, the more force due to pressure working against you in this situation. If you have saltwater at a density of 0.0371 lb/cu.in, and you're 6ft underwater, the pressure exerted on you would be 2.67psi (72in x 0.0371pci = 2.671psi - it would actually be a pressure gradient, but I'll spare you all that complexity). So, let's say a pilothouse door is 6ft x 3ft wide, that gives us an area of 2592sq.in. Without considering pressure gradient, that means that 2.67psi would result in 6920 lbs of force on the door!! If it doesn't break the door, you're gonna have a hell of a time opening it. As for the little window, let's say it's 2ft x 2ft. That's 576sq.in which means 1538 lbs of force on the window! But wait! The window slides on a frame and the friction coefficient of aluminum on aluminum with a bit of grease is 0.3. That means you'd have to overcome a friction force of 461 lbs to open that slider.

The science problem here is greatly simplified, there's a lot more going on than I presented but it should get us close to the type of forces we'd see. I think you'd be able to get this hypothetical slider open because of adrenaline as well as "impact force" (same reason you can drive a nail while striking a hammer but you can't "push" a nail into wood with the head of hammer) but the cabin door just ain't gonna budge.

End of the day, I'm glad my new Defiance door is all glass and that I have a glass breaker mounted on my cabin wall. =)

Oh, also, thanks for sharing and I'm glad everyone is okay.
Someone payed attention in Physics.
 
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wood2turn

I Should Upgrade My Account
Aug 17, 2009
2,210
277
Oak Harbor, WA
Name
Terry
Boat
14’ Sterling Sea Skiff - Gypsy Queen
There were issues with distress call putting out correct location (coordinates were off; would-be rescuers on water were looking in wrong area initially). They did not use a DSC radio.....


I recently installed a new VHF with DSC AND AIS.
There was some discussion on how to connect it up to my plotter and radar but I got very confused and gave up on it.
From this post I think I'll fond someone more versed in the proper connection and get it done.

Thanks for posting this...it remided me of my unfinished installation!
 
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tanner.s

Fish Slaughterer
Oct 18, 2012
1,896
599
San Diego
Name
Tanner
Boat
1997 Proline 23 W/A
That's all I learned in physics... none of those force calculations, maybe I should have paid attention.
Haha, not the most engaging class unless you like it, that's for sure. Some parts of it bored me to death, others were pretty cool.
 
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tambs

Yo BD! Color Screens-Invented Mid '50s. Jus sayin.
Oct 1, 2009
2,264
1,852
Tri-Cities, WA
Name
Tom
Boat
"Bottom Line" - 25' Carolina Classic SF
Science lesson time!

Pressure is just force over area. The more area you have, the more force due to pressure working against you in this situation. If you have saltwater at a density of 0.0371 lb/cu.in, and you're 6ft underwater, the pressure exerted on you would be 2.67psi (72in x 0.0371pci = 2.671psi - it would actually be a pressure gradient, but I'll spare you all that complexity). So, let's say a pilothouse door is 6ft x 3ft wide, that gives us an area of 2592sq.in. Without considering pressure gradient, that means that 2.67psi would result in 6920 lbs of force on the door!! If it doesn't break the door, you're gonna have a hell of a time opening it. As for the little window, let's say it's 2ft x 2ft. That's 576sq.in which means 1538 lbs of force on the window! But wait! The window slides on a frame and the friction coefficient of aluminum on aluminum with a bit of grease is 0.3. That means you'd have to overcome a friction force of 461 lbs to open that slider.

The science problem here is greatly simplified, there's a lot more going on than I presented but it should get us close to the type of forces we'd see. I think you'd be able to get this hypothetical slider open because of adrenaline as well as "impact force" (same reason you can drive a nail while striking a hammer but you can't "push" a nail into wood with the head of hammer) but the cabin door just ain't gonna budge.

End of the day, I'm glad my new Defiance door is all glass and that I have a glass breaker mounted on my cabin wall. =)

Oh, also, thanks for sharing and I'm glad everyone is okay.


I'll simplify all this in a readers digest version for those of you out there that are as scientifically challenged as I am:

Don't turtle your boat. Especially if you have a Pilothouse.
 
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Vibora

Member
Aug 18, 2011
435
205
49
Murrieta
Name
Adam
Boat
Yes
I wonder, if there were a Civilian Egress Trainer,( and there may be), if private boaters would sign the waiver and take the course ?? Do you have the stones?
 
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veteransfishing

Get in the groove and RELAX!!!
Nov 18, 2013
674
604
Olympia, Wa
Name
Danny Gabriel
Boat
Slippery Finn/Lisa M
I wonder, if there were a Civilian Egress Trainer,( and there may be), if private boaters would sign the waiver and take the course ?? Do you have the stones?
Hell yes, I'll sign up!
 
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Red4

Almost A Member
Jul 27, 2012
244
90
Covington WA USA
Name
Nick
Boat
SOLD
I did that in the Marine Corps in a simulated helicopter crash, not fun. Oh and you are wearing blacked out goggles so you are blinded
 
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jim isbell

I Should Upgrade My Account
Jun 25, 2015
1,405
611
64
Anaheim, CA
Name
Jim Isbell
Boat
19' Campion/115 4 stroke Yamaha
This is all about playing the "what if" game--a game that can save your life. And the answers are different for different boat designs. One thing I would kick in is the trend (a good trend) to have a certain amount of safety items ON YOUR PERSON. As the story shows, it can happen fast, you can be in the drink--fast. So all the great shit on the boat may be out of your reach. That included the so called ditch bag, so what you have tied to your shirt or pfd (assuming you are wearing it) can make the difference--like a hand held radio or PLB-or EPIRB. One guy mentioned using his knife to puncture a pfd--is your knife on your belt, or stored somewhere?
 
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jim isbell

I Should Upgrade My Account
Jun 25, 2015
1,405
611
64
Anaheim, CA
Name
Jim Isbell
Boat
19' Campion/115 4 stroke Yamaha
PS Amazed--AMAZED they lasted that long in water THAT cold. I guess all of us would be ahead to have a raft or something with us--and a way to be sure to be able to get to it. I see em stored up on the top, and wonder if the boat flips how they will get it free? I don't know much about that, just thinking out loud
 
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Meanwhile

Member
Dec 13, 2005
706
198
Warren, Oregon
Name
Randy Kane
Boat
2007 Grady White Marlin, 30.5', w/twin 250's
About the knife to deflate a pfd, you know that you can press in the spring loaded stopper on the mouth tube, then puff into it once free of the cabin?

Try it with an expired vest sometime.
 
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tambs

Yo BD! Color Screens-Invented Mid '50s. Jus sayin.
Oct 1, 2009
2,264
1,852
Tri-Cities, WA
Name
Tom
Boat
"Bottom Line" - 25' Carolina Classic SF
About the knife to deflate a pfd, you know that you can press in the spring loaded stopper on the mouth tube, then puff into it once free of the cabin?

Try it with an expired vest sometime.

True, but they don't deflate very quickly, and the fastest still takes over a minute (by my unscientific annual testing of several per year for the last 8 years).

The time taken to wait for it to deflate could be fatal, and there is the whole mechanical-device-so-it's-prone-to-failure-theory. Additionally, activating the deflation mechanism requires fine motor skills, and this is something most people lose first in an adrenaline rush event.

Bobbing around upside down in a dark, cold, wet, rapidly filling confined space that could be getting thrown side to side and back and forth isn't the time for subtle tactics. You are involved in the rapid progression of your own demise. Don't wear a fixed-blade belt knife on your person when on a boat. Wear two.
 
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Waterdog~

Just one more
Sep 1, 2009
2,761
2,103
Hollywood
Name
Brian
Boat
Tiderunner
Time to buy a 37' center console
Still wear your vest
 
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goatram

Notable Member Gate Keeper to the Great Northwest
  • Apr 3, 2008
    10,700
    6,642
    Stanwood, WA
    Name
    grrrrrrrr
    Boat
    33' RBW MISS ELIZA
    You guys are starting to make me paranoid!!
    These are all known issues and as long as you know about them you can try to mitigate them. If you get paranoid easily then the ocean is not for you. There are a few ways to die in the boat. You need to understand and make concessions to mitigate the perils. If it is your day to die nothing will stop the Grim Reaper from taking you.

    Have fun but as 1 of us says in his signature; be safe.[emoji33]

    Auto inflates are no worse than a regular PFD. Both float you if worn in the cabin. One is comfortable the other is not. If you fall overboard you want to be wearing one. My windows on the sides are sliders and the front center is a swing out he'd in place by two quarter turn handles.
     
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    Barracuda1

    Master of None
    Jul 7, 2011
    3,291
    1,975
    All over this bitch!
    Name
    Fred
    Boat
    Defiance 220 EX (BARRACUDA II)
    Just sarcasm John. :) I have all the proper safety equipment aboard but as these stories tell us, sometimes it's not enough. Boating can be dangerous, but the best thing you can have is some common sense and respect for the water.
     
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    Clockwork

    I Post A Lot But I Can't Edit This
    Feb 16, 2011
    2,544
    1,716
    covington, wa
    Name
    Ryan
    Boat
    GW Marlin
    wow what an amazing story! im always amazed at the level of detail that boat accident survivors have. I guess you become hyper aware in those types of situations.

    its just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and you can only plan for that so much. you can only bring so much gear, you can only have so much boat and you cant live in fear. we all know we are one rogue wave or one bad thru hull or one leaky transom away from disaster out there. the correct preparation is fishing from nothing less than a 32 ocean roamer but we all know that aint an option for most of us.

    we've all taken vessels beyond their factor of safety so to second guess the captain and crew here is non value added.
     
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    wdlfbio

    Once you go Cat, you never go back
    Sep 15, 2008
    9,659
    9,651
    Olympia, WA
    Name
    laurence
    Boat
    2021 Allied WildCat 30
    Come on Ryan. Not everyone fished the 2015 WTC. Pretty sure Vance knew the limits of his new girl, so he stayed in...


    "Lord I apologize... and be with the starving pygmies in New Guinea."
     
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    Clockwork

    I Post A Lot But I Can't Edit This
    Feb 16, 2011
    2,544
    1,716
    covington, wa
    Name
    Ryan
    Boat
    GW Marlin
    wow what an amazing story! im always amazed at the level of detail that boat accident survivors have. I guess you become hyper aware in those types of situations.

    its just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and you can only plan for that so much. you can only bring so much gear, you can only have so much boat and you cant live in fear. we all know we are one rogue wave or one bad thru hull or one leaky transom away from disaster out there. the correct preparation is fishing from nothing less than a 32 ocean roamer but we all know that aint an option for most of us.

    we've all taken vessels beyond their factor of safety so to second guess the captain and crew here is non value added.


    oops this was intended as a response to the "Shit Happens" Thread. oh well applies both ways.
     
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