2022 Blackmouth

Cwillis

Sometimes you're top boat...sometimes you're not.
  • Jul 15, 2009
    1,028
    922
    Woodinville, WA
    Name
    Casey
    Boat
    23 Pacific
    Interesting fight brewing now publicly w/ FishNorthwest and PSA.


    The whole thing is frustrating but hard to argue a new approach isn't needed based on what we have let happen to our fisheries particularly giving up our winter fishing based on what I have read.
     

    fishinden

    Member
    Nov 6, 2010
    422
    89
    Mt. Vernon
    Name
    Dennis
    Boat
    Fishin Den
    Get used to it, WDFW and the state are determined to keep the commercial salmon industry afloat, no matter what. I believe they will ban sport fishing, for salmon, before they end the commercial exploitation of salmon. Hopefully the FNW lawsuit will give us a few more years to try to save the, sport of salmon fishing. PSA is NOT here to help the sport salmon angler. PSA is a sheep in wolves clothing. Join CCA and FNW
     
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    Swede

    Yachtless
  • May 2, 2008
    4,390
    5,117
    Pacific Northwest
    Name
    Swede
    Boat
    Kristen Lee
    Optimism is in the updated WDFW salmon and steelhead hatchery policy. Increasing hatchery production should increase recreational opportunity. Also improves Orca food opportunity which the state cares so deeply about. Should benefit everyone.

    The Bolt Decision clearly states 50% of harvestable catch goes to the State. Harvestable catch is determined by The Pacific Fishery Management Council.
     
    Cwillis
    Cwillis
    Somebody please answer how would 5 million hatchery fish returning to puget sound get areas 6,7,8,9,10,11,12 opened back up for winter fishing? Or extended summer seasons in 5,6,7,9,10,11,12 to catch these returning fish?
    Upvote 0

    sgwill122

    I Should Upgrade My Account
    Feb 21, 2011
    2,051
    2,422
    Redmond/WA/USA
    Name
    Stephen
    Boat
    'Lady Karen' 28 Duckworth Offshore
    Sure. All blackmouth available for harvest in above said areas are hatchery fish. And they're not returning. They are resident fish. Thus, Blackmouth.
    I am not sure it helps much unless this hatchery production is on the Stilly. We already have healthy hatchery runs we are getting shut out of because of the limited encounters from the 'endangered' runs like the stilly.
     
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    Cwillis

    Sometimes you're top boat...sometimes you're not.
  • Jul 15, 2009
    1,028
    922
    Woodinville, WA
    Name
    Casey
    Boat
    23 Pacific
    Stilly fish are returning fish. Blackmouth are typically hatchery. Hatchery production is down somewhere in the 160 million range from the early 90s. We can improve vastly.

    You are using logic Swede. Stop using that silly thing. See below.

    Anyway, the Stillaguamish want to cap total harvest of their hatchery fish to 12% of the total return. Scott apparently did some math in his head and agreed. What’s the harm, right? The first year, good ol’ arithmetic was fine, but then … things went common core in a hurry. Seizing on an anomaly that appeared in the run projection modeling, the Stillaguamish tribe freaked about potential incidental harvest of their 2020 return and demanded that the winter blackmouth season in 2021 be closed. They demanded huge cuts in the summer Strait and North Sound fisheries. All because of that 12% harvest. They demanded that these Draconian cuts to the 2020 and 2021 seasons over 15 fish. Fifteen.
     
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    Mpizzle

    Bobber down!
    Jul 18, 2010
    1,256
    871
    Mt Vernon
    Name
    Matt
    Boat
    20’ Glasply
    More hatchery fish won’t make an ounce of difference in our mixed stock fisheries including winter Blackmouth which are based on wild encounters. More hatchery fish will just add salt to the wound because there will be a surplus of hatchery fish but no fisheries allowed in MSF areas to protect wild stocks.

    The orcas eat. We sit home.

    Hatchery production alone does nothing for MSF fisheries. PSA should make that clear.
     

    koopa

    Arima Adventures
    Feb 3, 2018
    112
    79
    40
    Puget sound
    Name
    Koopa
    Boat
    Arima
    Sadly nothing will change unless there’s a challenge to the Stillaguamish tribes/WDFW ridiculous cap of 12 percent, and how it being exploited to shutdown winter fishing. If the business and angling communities came together and were able to demonstrate the severe impacts that closing the winter fishery has on the community and their families, people might start to listen. If their going to close it for one group the entire river/area should be shut down for all groups.

    I always felt that demonstrating outside the Casino grounds, would have the greatest impact. It’s going to happen sooner or later as more and more is cut every year. Also, the general public is not aware that most recreational fishing (except area 1-4) does not allow the retention of wild chinook salmon which were spending millions trying to recover. Recreational anglers fish and retain fishing that are spawned for that very purpose. Most don’t know this and just see fishing as competition to the Orcas.

    Until Tribes/WDFW are actually held accountable for decisions and the impacts their decisions have on the local community and families, they have no incentive to change. Lawsuits are awesome but can take sometime to bear fruit. The current path, which has been significantly constrained by hatchery reductions, is broken and we are being fed huge pile of horse shit.
     
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    Cwillis

    Sometimes you're top boat...sometimes you're not.
  • Jul 15, 2009
    1,028
    922
    Woodinville, WA
    Name
    Casey
    Boat
    23 Pacific
    More hatchery fish won’t make an ounce of difference in our mixed stock fisheries including winter Blackmouth which are based on wild encounters. More hatchery fish will just add salt to the wound because there will be a surplus of hatchery fish but no fisheries allowed in MSF areas to protect wild stocks.

    The orcas eat. We sit home.

    Hatchery production alone does nothing for MSF fisheries. PSA should make that clear.

    My current thoughts exactly until I hear a logical argument otherwise.
     
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    JakeDogfish

    Newbie
    Jul 19, 2016
    41
    31
    45
    Des Moines
    Name
    Jake
    Boat
    Pro2000
    It’s pretty clear that none of Puget Sound Anglers members listen to Wdfw commission meetings. Ron Garner and Greg King are shills for the tribes, commercials and total gillnet huggers. How many times have they said “we need gillnets to mop up the hatchery fish that sports can’t catch”?
    Our seasons are based on fish with adipose fins hitting the gravel. Period!
     

    Fish_kid

    The Right Angler
    Aug 23, 2010
    1,165
    405
    Kirkland/WA
    Name
    Tom
    Boat
    Parker 2120 "F-14"
    I understand people being frustrated with the current sport fishing opportunities in Washington. I know I am. I'm not sure that I agree with some of the opinions and conclusions that are being given, though...

    I'm not sure Den has met Ron, but am pretty sure he hasn't had a calm conversation with him. Ron is only a sportfisherman and doesn't get a dime for all the work he has done to support sportfishing. I believe he is correct in thinking we need to work with the Tribes and Commercial fisherman to make changes. There have been times in the past where the Commercial fleet has traded or given quota to the Recreational fleet on the coast. There have been times when the Tribes have done the same. Is it perfect? No. But rather than fight over a shrinking pie, I believe we should make the pie bigger.

    Even the folks who support stopping hatchery production and fishing and letting the wild fish recover will tell you that it will take hundreds of years and no setbacks to recover that way. Seattle and Tacoma are not going back to wilderness anytime soon. The answer is to smartly increase hatchery production. There are some studies that show that rivers with hatchery production also tended to have better wild returns. The theory... and yes, it is only a theory... is that with more smolts in the river and more juvenile salmon swimming around the ocean, the odds that predation will happen to wild fish reduces because they are a smaller portion of the total salmon number.

    So the problem with increasing hatchery production is that we also need to keep them off the spawning gravel. I know that we believe that we sportsmen could catch them all, but our opinion doesn't matter. NOAA is who's opinion matters, and they are saying that sports can't do the job well enough, especially above buoy 10 on the Columbia where they bite less as they travel further upriver. CCA is correct in saying that gillnets are non-selective and impact wild fish. CCA is working to find and prove that alternative harvest methods will clean up to NOAA's satisfaction with less impact on wild fish. Until that is accepted science, we need a way to allow for increased hatchery production for us, the whales, the eagles, the world.

    I understand the frustration leading to the FNW lawsuit and trying to do something different to achieve a different outcome. I wish them luck. I fear there will be unanticipated consequences.

    I am glad we live in a country where we can express out opinions openly, and man, I wish it was summertime.
     
    Last edited:

    gabe0308

    Member
    Jul 25, 2008
    799
    597
    B'ham WA
    Name
    Gabe
    Boat
    SAANAUK' (SEASPORT 24XL), Tlingit Princess (20' Wooldridge Sport Offshore)
    I understand people being frustrated with the current sport fishing opportunities in Washington. I know I am. I'm not sure that I agree with some of the opinions and conclusions that are being given, though...

    I'm not sure Den has met Ron, but am pretty sure he hasn't had a calm conversation with him. Ron is only a sportfisherman and doesn't get a dime for all the work he has done to support sportfishing. I believe he is correct in thinking we need to work with the Tribes and Commercial fisherman to make changes. There have been times in the past where the Commercial fleet has traded or given quota to the Recreational fleet on the coast. There have been times when the Tribes have done the same. Is it perfect? No. But rather than fight over a shrinking pie, I believe we should make the pie bigger.

    Even the folks who support stopping hatchery production and fishing and letting the wild fish recover will tell you that it will take hundreds of years and no setbacks to recover that way. Seattle and Tacoma are not going back to wilderness anytime soon. The answer is to smartly increase hatchery production. There are some studies that show that rivers with hatchery production also tended to have better wild returns. The theory... and yes, it is only a theory... is that with more smolts in the river and more juvenile salmon swimming around the ocean, the odds that predation will happen to wild fish reduces because they are a smaller portion of the total salmon number.

    So the problem with increasing hatchery production is that we also need to keep them off the spawning gravel. I know that we believe that we sportsmen could catch them all, but our opinion doesn't matter. NOAA is who's opinion matters, and they are saying that sports can't do the job well enough, especially above buoy 10 on the Columbia where they bite less as they travel further upriver. CCA is correct in saying that gillnets are non-selective and impact wild fish. CCA is working to find and prove that alternative harvest methods will clean up to NOAA's satisfaction with less impact on wild fish. Until that is accepted science, we need a way to allow for increased hatchery production for us, the whales, the eagles, the world.

    I understand the frustration leading to the FNW lawsuit and trying to do something different to achieve a different outcome. I wish them luck. I fear there will be unanticipated consequences.

    I am glad we live in a country where we can express out opinions openly, and man, I wish it was summertime
    I understand people being frustrated with the current sport fishing opportunities in Washington. I know I am. I'm not sure that I agree with some of the opinions and conclusions that are being given, though...

    I'm not sure Den has met Ron, but am pretty sure he hasn't had a calm conversation with him. Ron is only a sportfisherman and doesn't get a dime for all the work he has done to support sportfishing. I believe he is correct in thinking we need to work with the Tribes and Commercial fisherman to make changes. There have been times in the past where the Commercial fleet has traded or given quota to the Recreational fleet on the coast. There have been times when the Tribes have done the same. Is it perfect? No. But rather than fight over a shrinking pie, I believe we should make the pie bigger.

    Even the folks who support stopping hatchery production and fishing and letting the wild fish recover will tell you that it will take hundreds of years and no setbacks to recover that way. Seattle and Tacoma are not going back to wilderness anytime soon. The answer is to smartly increase hatchery production. There are some studies that show that rivers with hatchery production also tended to have better wild returns. The theory... and yes, it is only a theory... is that with more smolts in the river and more juvenile salmon swimming around the ocean, the odds that predation will happen to wild fish reduces because they are a smaller portion of the total salmon number.

    So the problem with increasing hatchery production is that we also need to keep them off the spawning gravel. I know that we believe that we sportsmen could catch them all, but our opinion doesn't matter. NOAA is who's opinion matters, and they are saying that sports can't do the job well enough, especially above buoy 10 on the Columbia where they bite less as they travel further upriver. CCA is correct in saying that gillnets are non-selective and impact wild fish. CCA is working to find and prove that alternative harvest methods will clean up to NOAA's satisfaction with less impact on wild fish. Until that is accepted science, we need a way to allow for increased hatchery production for us, the whales, the eagles, the world.

    I understand the frustration leading to the FNW lawsuit and trying to do something different to achieve a different outcome. I wish them luck. I fear there will be unanticipated consequences.

    I am glad we live in a country where we can express out opinions openly, and man, I wish it was summertime.
    Do we need to keep hatchery fish out of spawning beds? Seems the best situation would be broodstock programs that are catching native fish is their home rivers and spawning them to release in their home rivers. This is very successful method used on countless River systems in Canada. Just helping nature along.
     

    Woodfighter

    Newbie
    May 8, 2014
    77
    18
    50
    Name
    Joe
    Boat
    Lund
    Stilly's tribes thoughts on more broodstock. At the 1:16:00 mark he asks the question and then you get the reply. And the Stilly run is the constrainting stock in the San Juans.
     
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